| Author |
Message |
    
Matthew Balkwell
Senior Member
Username: matt
Post Number: 65
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, August 17, 2008 - 06:06 am: | 
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Well this morning after a slight timing adjustment we started her up, she fired straight away and things sounded and looked perfect, then disaster.
We noticed water exiting from the exhaust, then more water and then she stopped,
we removed the exhaust outlet cover to see that the expansion chamber was full of water to just below the exhaust ports, the joints between the exhaust outlet which also contains the water inlet, and the expansion chamber had failed.
On calming down and exhausting my swear box money we began to dismantle the offending parts.
as you can see from the pics attached, corrosion has taken away a lot or iron from the exhaust outlet, and pitted the top of the expansion chamber, the pitting is easily fixed, but the original exhaust outlet will have to be built up with braze, or another one found.
Its a shame as this engine has so much bounce and the dyna start has already won me over.
My next post on this engine i hope will be positive.
Matt and Ron.
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Peter Ogborne
Senior Member
Username: peterogborne
Post Number: 272
Registered: 09-2002
| | Posted on Sunday, August 17, 2008 - 07:13 pm: |
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Mathew....unfortunately this is a constantly re occuring problem with these engines . I solved it by fabricating a new one from brass . It is basicaly a piece of brass tube with a copper elbow silver solderd inside ,the elbow is the exhaust out let and the brass tube is the water jacket.It works well although it has never been ses trialed . I am sure you could find some one to make you one ...it may be a bit expensive as it is rather labour intensive but it is a way out of your dilema .I dont think building up the surface with bronze will work ,The parent metal is so corroded that getting a good bond with the bronze is be very hard to achieve
I will send you some pictures of the fitting I made and you could shop around for some one to make it. |
Andrew Nicholls
Member
Username: andrewinoz
Post Number: 4
Registered: 12-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, August 17, 2008 - 10:03 pm: |
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Fabricating a one off fitting is certainly a great idea. Especially if it saves the engine from the alternative of the scrap heap. I'm sure you guys realise that Brass and sea water do not mix. You certainly should not use any brass in contact with sea water and especially if there are any stray electrical currents.(ignition)
It will have an extremely short duty cycle in this environment. |
Peter Ogborne
Senior Member
Username: peterogborne
Post Number: 273
Registered: 09-2002
| | Posted on Monday, August 18, 2008 - 07:00 am: |
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There are quite a few ''brass'' fittings on S/T engines ,water pump ,banjo fiitings for water outlet. I dont know the chemical composition of these brasses but it rare to see any detrimental effect of salt water .
In Matts case I would say he does not have any option but to have a fabricated fitting . If he can obtain a good genuine cast iron replacement good luck to him .As a matter of interest my fittings were made from tubing from a windmill pump.It is the grade of brass that machines easly and no doubt does not contain any copper.The internal elbow is copper ,it is not the ideal combination but as I envisaged having a closed circut cooling system there would not have been any problem with salt water and it's damaging effects. |
Andrew Nicholls
Member
Username: andrewinoz
Post Number: 5
Registered: 12-2007
| | Posted on Monday, August 18, 2008 - 07:47 am: |
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Well firstly as I said; fabricating a one off fitting is a great idea. Secondly copper is a constituent of the alloy 'brass' and is the remaining metal after the brass has dezincified. Before you get any higher on your horse try putting 'Dezincification' into Google and read up on a very well known and documented phenomenon. If you only run 'meets' in fresh water Brass may last years. If salt water is present then don't use brass. It's really a no-brainer. Forewarned is forarmed. |
David Myers
Advanced Member
Username: dave_myers
Post Number: 45
Registered: 11-2006
| | Posted on Monday, August 18, 2008 - 09:14 am: |
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Hi Matt,
I had the same problem with my P55. I can see by the photo that the centre is not sealing. I re-faced mine on my linisher to obtain an even and flat surface. I also made the gasket out of a thicker jointing paper instead of the thin one that Stuarts use.
Put a Straight edge over the base and you will see what I mean. I have fixed a couple of 55's like this with no problem. Also keep in mind... DO NOT OVER TIGHTEN as this deforms the gasket and it will LEAK!
Hope this helps,
Dave}} |
John Archibald
Senior Member
Username: john_archibald
Post Number: 75
Registered: 08-2006
| | Posted on Monday, August 18, 2008 - 10:35 am: |
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What brass does not contain copper?
Brass is copper and zinc. Some brasses have other metals added, but copper and zinc are always present.
Copper and tin is bronze. Some bronzes have other metals added, but there is always copper and tin present.
Archibald |
Peter Ogborne
Senior Member
Username: peterogborne
Post Number: 274
Registered: 09-2002
| | Posted on Monday, August 18, 2008 - 07:13 pm: |
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OK not from my ''High Horse'' and with out the benifit of a degree in Metallurgy and using what was in the scrap box I fabricated a fitting to replace the badly corroded one to replace the CI original.This is Matts problem and as he will most unlikely be able to obtain a good repacement my suggestion was to do as I did.
So from the scrap box I found some 3 inch brass tube.This originaly came from a windmill pump.
As this material is a tube I would say that it falls into the classification of A low zinc brass[containing5 to 20% zinc]This material is especialy suited for tube manufacture and resists corrosion.
On the other hand as my laboratory is closed and I am only guesing it could also be ''Yellow Brass''[65% Copper Zinc 35% .There again it could be a ''Leaded Brass'' [1/2% 3%lead] this makes for a free machining material this is the case with the Brass that I used.
All this is academic ........it is a case of using what we have . So having made a small fitting for a friend on his steam propelled vessel and this was a raw water [Salt] condensor fitting and using the same Brass material and the afore said vessel being used regularly throughout the past year without any corrosion being noted I would say that you need not concern yourself about me getting on my ''High Horse''.I will send Matt a picture of my fitting and he can make up his own mind as what to do. |
Andrew Nicholls
Member
Username: andrewinoz
Post Number: 6
Registered: 12-2007
| | Posted on Monday, August 18, 2008 - 09:29 pm: |
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Steady now Tonto, watch the steam pressure lest you blow a valve. Nothing you said changes the *fact* that brass and sea water are not a good mix. Period. This is all I said; so why you are *so* defensive is beyond me. If you are a Metallurgist you know this- so why the postulating? No 'constructive' point at all.
Most, if not all, of the 'old' engines we like to play with have brass in/on them because they were built prior to our modern understanding of these issues. They were built to the 'standard' of the day. If a purist wants to use brass as a true restoration then that's one very acceptable viewpoint. A purist would not fabricate a fitting, in the fashion of this discussion, so it's a mute point.
For your benefit Peter, there is a case for using brass in this application: if there is no alternative, then so be it. I don't have a problem with that either.
Given our modern understanding of these issues and our much better understanding of material properties: there are better alternatives. Simple as that. Like I said it's a no-brainer really. All of my marine engines have extensive brass on them, carbies, nuts, valves, levers etc and I love nothing more than having polished brass in the sun. Magnificent. I wouldn't however knowingly put eg; a brass pipe in as a raw water outlet. Brass is great stuff- just not the best material in the application you describe.
I'm signing off now and returning to lurking- I find this thread tedious in the extreme.
Good luck with your engine Matt. |
David Stott
Member
Username: david_stott
Post Number: 30
Registered: 06-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 19, 2008 - 12:28 am: |
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Matt,. I like Dave Myers idea. It is the simplist and if it gets you another 20 years of use then thats fine. |
Todd Vidgen
Senior Member
Username: todd_vidgen
Post Number: 62
Registered: 03-2008
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 19, 2008 - 01:57 am: |
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Of course one could always fit a heat exchanger
and the it wouldnt matter didley squat what material
you used as long as you ran corrosion inhibitor
on the fresh water side to deal with the dissimilar
metal eaty thingy dohickey
Then one would have an engine that will last a
lifetime,and you wouldn't have to flush out |
Andrew Nicholls
Member
Username: andrewinoz
Post Number: 7
Registered: 12-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 19, 2008 - 03:06 am: |
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And Todd if I'm not mistaken the ol' timers take on this was to run a copper pipe parallel with the keel on the outside of the planking.....
more or less along the deadrise.
There is a guy in Perth(?) who sells an ideal little heat exchanger for your idea for around AUD$90.00 on e-bay. He imports them for making ethanol fuel and biodiesel. I was thinking this... but was too scared to mention it lest I get my other head ripped off.
Personally, with Matts problem, I would look either repairing the original casting; by gas fusion welding (cast piston rings) or if it's too chalky; making a pattern and re-casting. Each to their own abilities I suppose. |
Matthew Balkwell
Senior Member
Username: matt
Post Number: 67
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 19, 2008 - 05:41 am: |
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Thanks for all the advice gentlemen, the offending exhaust outlet was being readied for brazing today and fell apart in my dads hands, not to worry a phone call later and we will soon be taking delivery of a newly cast bronze one.
Todd there is no most outstanding putt putt built in the last ten years category this year, do i enter the RubyToo in the best boat under five years old?
One more question, what type of gasket material should i use on the exhaust outlet, we have some klingerite, but i was thinking of using rubberized calk sheet.
Regards Matt and Ron
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Peter Ogborne
Senior Member
Username: peterogborne
Post Number: 275
Registered: 09-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 19, 2008 - 07:17 am: |
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Firstly Mathew I am pleased to hear that you have or will be resolving your problem...beware of ''Armchair Experts'' re you selection of Bronze .Enough said on that .
However I must direct some comment to Andrew.....
Andrew ,the whole point of this Forum is to discuss ,offer and take in advice. It is not nesessary to resort to personal remarks ,even though that is what I have done in this particular instance.
If you read back through the posts on this subject , you may note that you fired the first shot ,high horse,tonto etc.I made my comments to Matt in good faith to do with what he would.Whilst we certainly value your comments it would be wise to desist from personal derogatory comments...even though they be of a minor nature .Comments of a personal nature are more at home on SEL. In the past I have been guilty of making such retorts when provoked.However it is a pointless exercise and degrades the whole nature of our hobby.
Perhaps ,and I hesitate to suggest to you that, in your own words instead of ''Lurking ''you would be better served contributing some of your valued experience. |
Andrew Nicholls
Member
Username: andrewinoz
Post Number: 8
Registered: 12-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 19, 2008 - 04:05 pm: |
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Peter, I have 3 comments for you to consider:
1) What I said (regarding the matter) was factually correct. What you said was factually incorrect. Of this; there is no doubt.
2 I fired no shots- merely reacted (poorly) to the input.
I will leave others to be the judge of this.
3)If senior members were more welcoming and tolerant of new posters then the many who lurk may be encouraged to join in.
Finaly Peter there are two old sayings I would share with you:
Firstly you most definately are the pot calling the kettle black.
and last but not least you most definately have removed all doubt.
Good day sir. |
Todd Vidgen
Senior Member
Username: todd_vidgen
Post Number: 63
Registered: 03-2008
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 19, 2008 - 06:01 pm: |
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If she is less than 5 enter her in that class,
otherwise put her in most original,you could
also do "best dressed crew,or novelty boat"
We changed from 10yrs down to 5 because 2 or 3
boats would still be "cleaning up " in that class
(Boyds and Allans to mention a couple)and this was
supported by B and A
Secondly Permaseal make gasket material suitable for
your application , it comes in various sizes
But the most useful size I have found is 750mmx
150mm Part #MP1182 it is also good for head gaskets as it has an inner metal layer
It is available from Burson Auto parts (5 stores
in Sydney)ring 47324088 to find the closest
Or repco ph133227. They also make a whole range of other gasket materials.the MP1182 retails for
about $19 a sheet |
Peter Ogborne
Senior Member
Username: peterogborne
Post Number: 276
Registered: 09-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 19, 2008 - 06:44 pm: |
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Andrew ...in your own words you have had a problem before on this Forum.It must have been quite insignifcant ,I was not aware of it and it passed me .Perhaps it was a result of your ''Know All '' attitude!Maybe lighten up a bit !You might see things differently.Oh by the way, if you are not happy with this forum there is a solution!
Another thing I never made a claim to be 100% correct in my assumptions,it was mearly a suggestion .Fortunately we are graced with people such as yourself who know it all ! |
Roger DiRuscio
Senior Member
Username: solarrog
Post Number: 311
Registered: 03-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 19, 2008 - 07:11 pm: |
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You are both people who's opinion I respect.
but this needs to stop now or im sending both of you to your room's
signed
mom |
John Archibald
Senior Member
Username: john_archibald
Post Number: 76
Registered: 08-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 19, 2008 - 08:22 pm: |
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Todd,
Yes, good suggestion. There is nothing wrong with an air-cooled radiator either. A simple fan would improve the heat transfer and on cool days the excess heat might be quite welcome in a cab in the boat.
Archibald
. |
Peter Ogborne
Senior Member
Username: peterogborne
Post Number: 277
Registered: 09-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 20, 2008 - 03:49 am: |
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Yes Roger ...good idea. |
Matthew Balkwell
Senior Member
Username: matt
Post Number: 69
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Saturday, September 06, 2008 - 03:44 am: |
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AAAAAAAHHHHHHH, put on new exhaust outlet checked for watertight seal, it was ok so i put on expansion chamber cover plate and filled up engine with water and rust inhibitor it was then that i noticed a slight leak from under one of the head stud nuts, tightened up, problem gone, spin flywheel a few times everything seems fine.
And then i open crankcase drain cocks green water comes out, i remain calm and remove expansion cover plate and drain remaining water, it seems we now have a leak from the head, probably from using old gasket or some suspect head studs.
I surprised myself on how calm i remained, i am determined to make this engine a runner, the bronze exhaust outlet has come up a treat, it looks fantastic i will post some pics of it later.
Regards Matt and Ron. |
Todd Vidgen
Senior Member
Username: todd_vidgen
Post Number: 81
Registered: 03-2008
| | Posted on Saturday, September 13, 2008 - 06:30 pm: |
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Matt what drugs are you taking to remain so calm ?
Can I have some? |
Matthew Balkwell
Senior Member
Username: matt
Post Number: 72
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Saturday, September 13, 2008 - 07:42 pm: |
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Todd, a few beers[my wife and i differ greatly on what a few means] at the end of the day and some solace in the fact that i think i actually know what is going wrong are enough, only just.
No progress on the engine yesterday as we need to source a helicoil to fix the head stud, but i did put new lights on the trailer and they actually work.
Put the maggy back together and thought about putting another few coats of varnish on the deck and combing in readiness for Davistown.
Matt and Ron. |
Matthew Balkwell
Senior Member
Username: matt
Post Number: 74
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Saturday, October 11, 2008 - 07:29 pm: |
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We have hit another snag, after another attempt to start her , we noticed water coming out of the exhaust where the nut tightens up against the flange.
This was soon found out to be a faulty joint in the water entry from the exhaust outlet, this is a easy fix, but when we went to turn the flywheel we discovered that it was very hard to turn at about 180degree intervals, we then began a process of elimination.
Off came the dyna start , then the waterpump and finally the head, but we still have the stiffness in rotation with our heads bowed we pushed her back into her part of the shed, the block will be lifted next week and we will see if we have bent the crank.
Can you bend the crank by running the engine slower or faster than the dynastart.?
Ah well Davistown is in two weeks time that should cheer us up,
regards Matt and Ron.
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David Myers
Advanced Member
Username: dave_myers
Post Number: 49
Registered: 11-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, October 12, 2008 - 08:27 pm: |
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G'Day Matt.
I think it is unlikely that the shaft would be bent unless you have had the motor sitting on the flywheel or even may have had the Dynastart belt far too tight. It is not needed to have them too tight, about a 1/2 inch deflection at least.
The tightness could be caused by rust on the Main bearings when you had the water problem into crankcase. There is an oil drip hole above each main and the water could have seeped in there and rusted the balls and cage and creating a tight spot. I had this problem with my P55 once.
To check if the shaft is bent at the front, just set up some sort of fixed reference point and slowly turn the flywheel to ckeck for any run out. Idealy a Dial Gauge would be best to use but there are many ways to check it.
On another note... I have noticed in the photo of the motor that it has a reduction Gearbox. If the motor that is in the boat now is a 1:1 and swings a 12 inch prop then this one will not fit-as it is a 2:1 ratio at 1/2 engine speed and Stuarts recomend a 17 inch prop. Also the output is below the engine centre line and will not line up to your mounts and prop shaft...
Just an observation that you may not have considered!
Hope you get it sorted Matt. I am off to Tweed River regatta for next weekend and am leaving tomorrow to go up.
See you at Davistown
Dave |
Todd Vidgen
Senior Member
Username: todd_vidgen
Post Number: 87
Registered: 03-2008
| | Posted on Monday, October 13, 2008 - 04:36 pm: |
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Dave ,Ive got Matts entry,havent seen yours yet |
Hugo Derrick
Member
Username: hello
Post Number: 9
Registered: 08-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 14, 2008 - 01:28 pm: |
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Matt / Ron; I have a P55 with the chain driven Lucas dynastart, mounted directly under the expansion chamber, just like yours.
Have you had the crank apart?
Having restored it, it back-fired during its test run & twisted the crank out of alignment, exhibiting exactly the symptoms you describe. The crank's centre section (containing the drum valve) was binding on the bronze liner. It was a strip / realign the crank (with crank pin nuts driven up really hard!)& reassemble job.
You might be able to test (assuming there's enough clearance) by lifting the block off & slackening off the crankcase tie-bolts, including the ones holding the centre section top / bottom together; if there's enough clearance & this is the problem, the engine should free-up.
Regards,
H. |
Matthew Balkwell
Senior Member
Username: matt
Post Number: 75
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 15, 2008 - 04:34 am: |
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Hugo,our engine backfired just like yours, we might have to rely on your experience with fixing this problem.
The engine has been pushed into the corner of the the shed, and the block and head are in a bath of anti corrosion liquid.
We will attempt to remedy this latest problem after we get back from the Davistown regatta.
Thanks to everybody for their helpfull advice.
Matt and Ron. |
Matthew Balkwell
Senior Member
Username: matt
Post Number: 76
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Saturday, October 18, 2008 - 12:36 am: |
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Well the P55MRE is about to be in more bits.
Like i said in my earlier post it will just have to wait till after Davistown.
 |
Matthew Balkwell
Senior Member
Username: matt
Post Number: 83
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 23, 2008 - 03:51 am: |
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After yet another attempt at getting the joints right on the expansion cover plate and the exhaust outlet, oh yeh i forgot a bottom end rebuild has also been done in the meantime, we had yet again water in the exhaust chamber and the crankcases.
Then my dad had a brainwave we decided to check our exhaust outlet, there it was a small leak from a copper plug in the bronze casting, we tapped a thread and have a stainless bolt with sealant which hope fully will fix our problem.
All going well we will turn her over again in a day or two, yet again Our Stuart no3 is involved in another character building exercise.
Matt and Ron. |
