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| Ongoing problems with P55 |
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Message |
    
Hans Poutsma
Member
Username: hansp77
Post Number: 20
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Monday, October 22, 2007 - 07:43 am: | 
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Hello guys,
So, I still can't seem to understand this engine.
With much help from this board I serviced the carby, and found the float to have a fair bit of petrol in it from a invisible hairline crack in the solder.
Now the carby seems to be working fine.
For a little while I thought that I was getting the hang of starting this thing, but now it is getting harder and harder (again).
Basically it takes ages, and many tries to get this thing started. If I didn't have a brand new extra large marine battery in it, I doubt that I would be getting it started at all now- as I used to do by hand cranking once the old worn out battery inevitably ran out of charge.
Yesterday and the day before I noticed that the plugs (brand new) after running for a while are really REALLY gunking up- thick oily black, even chunky- not dry/sooty.
Also, yesterday I noticed a bit of a slick forming on the water from the exhaust- and once I had turned the engine off, then a couple of drips of black oil settling out of the exhaust. Together with blowing a bit smoke (I don't know how much is normal)- to me this all seems to imply too much oil in the fuel? I know I mixed it correctly (50:1) btw, it is 'BP hightide' (hopefully I haven't stuffed up and put the wrong oil in again)- and have attempted to aproximately account for evaporation by adding in some fresh raw petrol every so often...
First things first, and a few problems I think could be happening.
I am not running the engine under load at the moment, rather just running it in neutral just above idling every time I get out to the boat (still working on it- and untill I feel more confident about the engine running I am not too keen to take it off its mooring as I was about to this weekend- but didn't).
Is this my problem? that running at slow speed or with no load is causing this gunking up?
What is the best way for me to routinely run the engine- aside from actually taking it out for a run?
Yesterday, just after starting it, I popped it in gear for a second thrusting the boat forward a bit, and it quickly conked out.
Also, I wonder if simply evaporation has occurred much more than I have thought and the fuel is becoming too oil rich? Also, though I try to freshen up the fuel, maybe it has simply gotten too old in there?
Considering the length of my exhaust, and that the water only enters it right at the transom like it should- I was suprised to see that black oil had made it all the way to the outlet. Is this implying that my exhaust is blocked up and needing a clean out (please say no)? This is sort of where I am leaning right now- but I really really don't want to have to get this exhaust off.
I have thought about trying some hotter plugs?
and lastly and seperately (I think), yesterday I also noticed a distinct knocking coming from the waterpump. It is still pumping fine, but is this something ominous requiring attention, or does this happen?
Sorry for the ramble,
and thanks to any and all advice offered.
If you need any questions answered or clarification please ask.
Hans. |
Peter Ogborne
Senior Member
Username: peterogborne
Post Number: 230
Registered: 09-2002
| | Posted on Monday, October 22, 2007 - 08:26 am: |
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Have to think about all this Hans .For a start I would get rid of the fuel in your tank and start afresh. You get many arguments for and against using one of the synthetic two stroke oils. There will be cries of dont use them in anything but a chain saw or high performance two stroke .
I have used them with no problems at all, lets face it we are not talking high performance with your P55.It is a fully ball bearing engine and unless it overheats you wont seize it.As long as you have a reasonable oil content in fresh petrol you will be OK ,try it,just keep an eye [your hand will do, on the block to see that it does not get overheated].It sounds like too much oil or too rich a carb setting.These engines do accumulate oil and you can drain it off from the drain plugs in the crankcase ,i have 1/8th cocks in mine and I open them now and then ,youll be surprised how much oil/petrol comes out,do this when starting.
The noise in the water pump....sound like it might be a mechanical problem.It is not a big deal to remove the pump and check it .First have a look at the inlet and out let valves.They are check valves and being so move up and down and could produce a clicking noise...possible but not likely.Hard to diagnose but as I said the pump does have some mechanical components ,a chain /gear drive and a ball bearing reciprocating movement.
Please Hans if you find out what the problems are let us know ...feed back is important |
Hans Poutsma
Member
Username: hansp77
Post Number: 21
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Monday, October 22, 2007 - 09:34 am: |
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Thanks Peter,
I will drain the tank next time I'm out there, and only keep excess fuel in a sealed Jerry rather than sitting in the tank, and I will also see if I can locate the drain plugs in the crankcase- haven't come across them yet as its pretty dark and tricky to get down there- though I haven't exactly specifically looked for them either.
Heat is never a problem, even after running it for a while I can comfortably rest my hand on the block.
I think I will try to get it starting and running well before I pull off the water pump.
Also, I think it is time I tried to give the old thing a decent clean up. I've been avoiding it because it is so hard to do IN the boat, but, its gotta be done- so weather permitting, next weekend- and will snap a few shots while I am at it.
Many thanks,
Hans.
P.S. I will be sure to provide feedback on how and I can only hope when I get this running properly. |
Roy
Visitor
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 23, 2007 - 12:34 am: |
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Hi Hans, I have a P66 and like you I felt a lot of dismay to begin with but I am getting the motor trained pretty well now. Re the starting, I routinely give it a squirt of easystart direct into the carb and it starts in about 2 revolutions even though I have a starter on it. I agree that when I ran it on idle it fouled the plugs but with the help of the guy's on the board I adjusted the idle and run jets, it idles sweetly now. Re the fuel I tried 30 grade as per the manual, two stroke oil and now use two stroke outboard oil at the specified mix. It burns with minimal smoke after warmed up and I feel is better for the motor. Re testing the motor on the mooring under load, try setting a stern anchor out to hold the boat in line then run in reverse to load it up while pulling against the mooring. Re the water pump, when I assembled the motor I inadvertantly put the chain sprocket back to front and had a tick as the half link touched the block. Does it occur at similar or half speed to the motor? Hope this is of help. Roy |
Hans Poutsma
Member
Username: hansp77
Post Number: 22
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 23, 2007 - 06:19 am: |
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Cheers Roy, everything is of help
I just wonder if it is the engine that needs training or me
yeah I might try some of that starting spray- and at least keep a couple of cans hidden away on the boat for those emergency moments where the wind is blowing me towards the crashing rocks  though I would like to get it working properly without it.
I had heard that it isn't exactly great for engines. Any opinions on that?
Roy, do you mean that you just hand crank it to start with the easystart in it rather than use the Dynastart?
And yeah, thats probably a good idea testing the motor under load. I might also try just doing a few laps around the mooring in reverse.
Open question about fouling the plugs, and idle/load...
when I go out and just want to run the engine for a while without taking it off the mooring-
is it ok to just turn the idle up, and is running the engine at low-medium revs in nuetral for 20-30 mins or so bad for the engine?
Same question high revs, etc?
Or do I actually need to be running the engine under load- or is load AND higher revs required?
hope that was clear...
about the water pump,
It appeared to be knocking at a similar speed as the engine. I could actually feel a solid shock happening every time if I rested my hand on the pipe that runs from the pump to the block. This is what had me worried.
And lastly, what are the opinions on using a hotter plug? any improvements, any problems, any point, etc?
Thanks guys,
probably heading out there Saturday to spend the whole day cleaning and tinkering with the engine.
Hans. |
roy
Visitor
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 23, 2007 - 03:28 pm: |
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Hi Hans, Yes my motor starts rally easy now with either a crank or starter when cold, I just use choke & 1/2 throttle but when hot it takes a good deal longer so I just give it a squirt then and it starts 2nd turn almost every time. It probably isn't ideal for the motor but priorities - heart attack or easystart?. It could be that once running and given a good hard work run for about 30 minutes your motor may clear itself of the carbon, how long is it since you gave it a good workout? My carby is an Amal and to be honest I found the adjustment sequence very delicate and I don't fiddle with it now in case I lose the setting, but that's just me. Just setting the throttle will do the same job. Have you checked that the choke flap is completely opening when you manually open it, it may have slipped and still be partly closed. However with the wet soot you have it would appear the carb is running far too rich and I would start adjustment there first once you can get it running steadily enough to try the adjustments. Ignition retarded can do this also.
Re the water pump, this runs at slower revs via a small gear off the mag chain drive. A knocking may indicate a fault in the drive train which in turn could be a lost gear tooth, damaged chain to the mag, (retarding firing?) Take the pump off, three 1/4" bolts and inspect inside the housing for damage, take a torch. Hope this is of assistance. Cheers Roy |
Hans Poutsma
Member
Username: hansp77
Post Number: 23
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 23, 2007 - 09:00 pm: |
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Thanks again Roy,
My carby is one of the early bronze Solex ones, which doesn't have a volume screw. Very pretty but basic.
Here is my first thread- long and painfull no doubt for all the members who helped me on it- with a couple of photos of the cleaned up carby on the bottom.
http://www.oldmarineengine.com/discus/messages/3436/92062.html
It used to flood before I fixed the float (which had a heap of petrol in it) and cleaned the whole thing out. Now I think it is working ok. I think... At least it is not longer constantly dripping oily fuel out of it when the engine runs, and gassing out the cabin.
But I don't know.
Basically the only adjustments I have got are the choke which is working fine, and the idle or throttle control.
When starting I used to try the choke, and half throttle thing, and I suppose used to get reasonable success with it. Lately, though I still try it first, it doesn't seem to matter what I do.
After reading through my first thread again, and all the great advice I already have there, I think I will have just do the things I was aparantly avoiding after wishfully believing I had isolated the problem to the carby (which was A problem but obviously just one of more).
The muffler and as much of the exhaust as I can remove are going to have to come off for a clean (this is going to be really hard how I am going to get it out), and the magneto the same for a clean up and service.
And I suppose, unless I can figure out this knocking- the water pump too.
Summers almost here though, and I have to get this thing running.
As far as some of my questions, I think reading through the Fairways site again answered one of them, that it is not good for the Dynastart to run the engine at high revs.
Anyway, will follow up soon,
Thanks,
Hans. |
Hans Poutsma
Member
Username: hansp77
Post Number: 24
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, October 28, 2007 - 03:46 am: |
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Update,
Saturday was coming around and it was looking to be perfect weather for a sail 27 degrees, 15-20 knots hot dry offshore northerly- and with my uncle keen, thats what we did- giving me the chance to test out the engine off the mooring and under load.
I got the engine running- with the aid of Airo-start (aptly named 'start-ya-bastard')- it sounded totally fine... and in full preparation to sail (main raised, Jib ready to raise) we motored off the mooring.
Sure enough, 10-15 meters later, amongst boats, and not too far from the rock wall the engine conked out and we had to quickly raise the jib and sail upwind and out of there.
Stressfull but non-eventfull.
Now I had to try to figure out what the hell was going on, out on the water while sailing so that we could motor back onto the mooring- VERY very glad to have my uncle around.
I believed we had a problem with the throttle, as when under way it sounded like the engine was really struggling and non-responsive to throttle increase.
With the cover off and me down in the bilge examining it, I got my uncle to start playing with the throttle and gear controls from the cock-pit so I could actually see what was happening.
It quickly became apparant that the throttle was not engaging when it changed into gear- and if I started it up again, that by manually doing it I could get the engine to power us along properly.
As we had been using it, the engine had been trying to deal with being in gear with just the setting of the idle- enough to move us along for a little while until it conked out.
Eventually we figured out that there was a sort sprung pin thing (forgot the camera otherwise I would have photographed it) between the gear stick and the throttle-arm thing (terminology is not my strong point) that was gunked up and wasn't releasing- that when sprayed out with carby cleaner, quickly began working again.
Now we could get in gear and actually power off strongly with proper control from the throttle in the cockpit.
So we did a few tests, but then another problem emerged.
Often when changing out of gear- reverse or forward- into neutral the engine would quickly conk out again.
This had me totally puzzled untill it turned out, it appears that the gears are sticking quite a bit, and that in order to actually get out of a gear once you have been in it for a little while, then you have to go through neutral into the other gear and back again-
otherwise the throttle disengauges while the gear does not, and it is the same problem as before- in gear running trying to be dealt with by idle alone. When this happens you feel and hear the change to nuetral, but the engine is still driving the shaft to some degree at least.
So with this all figured out a few hours later, we were ready to try to motorsail back onto the mooring- which we did with no real problem.
Now I have to figure out why the gears are sticking- I am assuming a top-up or change of oil would be the first thing to do- I just have to figure out how and where- its so dark and hard to get too back there- problem compounded that in moving house I have 'temporarily misplaced' the manual (soon to be found when I sort through my study),
so any advice regarding this would be great.
Also, I tried to find the crankcase cocks to drain the collected fuel and oil- but haven't been able to. I believe I am going to have to remove my floor boards in the boat and my battery-well- all not exactly easy or quick- in order to get access to this.
So short story in the end- after a few pitfalls, progress, and proper working reliable power from the engine which felt great.
So long as I made sure that the gears were not sticking then there was really no problem.
Thanks all,
Hans. |
Peter Ogborne
Senior Member
Username: peterogborne
Post Number: 231
Registered: 09-2002
| | Posted on Sunday, October 28, 2007 - 06:03 am: |
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The crankcase drain cocks are at the base of the crankcase on the opposite side to the carburetor.There are two and they are 1/8th BSP .They are designed so that you dont have to remove them completely.
Your gear box has what is called ''Stiction''.The cones are sticking .Firstly make the centering adjustment .This is done by loosening the brass hex head bolt on the top of the gear box .Adjust so the that the pressure is the same both in forward and reverse.
Give the gearbox a good flush out with kero or diesel. The oil may be contaminated and the cones partly rusted . |
Hans Poutsma
Member
Username: hansp77
Post Number: 25
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Monday, October 29, 2007 - 03:48 am: |
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Thanks Peter,
I am looking at the diagrams on my manual that I just dug up,
a few questions,
I can see where the crankcase drain cocks are meant to be- do these point vertically down, or horizontal?- (big difference as to whether I might be able to get access to them without pulling up floorboards/battery well)),
Regarding the gear box- for cleaning and refilling, I can see where the 'filling plug' is supposed to be- but from the part list the part labled 'Drain Plug' (part #2988) doesn't appear on the diagram. Any hints where this is?
Also, does my reverse gear box have a dipstick?
also on the diagrams I can't seem to find the Centering adjustment hex head bolt you mention on top of the gear box. The filling plug (part #2990) looks to be the main obvious hex head around that area, but the diagram is a little confusing. Could you give me any reference to the diagram, close to one labled part or something, or just description of where this is?
lastly, could you expand upon what you mean by adjusting it until the pressure is the same in forward and reverse?
Obviously, when the engine is in front of me, then these things will mean a lot more to me and become obvious (I hope), so sorry for asking out all these details.
Many thanks,
Hans. |
Peter Ogborne
Senior Member
Username: peterogborne
Post Number: 232
Registered: 09-2002
| | Posted on Monday, October 29, 2007 - 05:18 am: |
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Hans....the drain plugs are horizontal
The gear box drain plug is at the lowest point underneath underneath the gear box
The centering adjustment is on top of the gear box ,it is a brass hex head with an socket head screw in the centre.To adjust what you are trying to achieve is equal pressure when puting the drive in forward and reverse.To do this you undo the brass hex and turn thr socket head screw in either direction. You will soon feel if the adjustment is correct as you move the tram lever.What it is doing is applying more or less pressure on the cone.If it is too much one way then there is a fair chance the cone will not realease as in your case.....to little pressure and the cone will slipo.
If you still cannot see it let me know and i will send a pic. |
Hans Poutsma
Member
Username: hansp77
Post Number: 26
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Monday, October 29, 2007 - 08:30 am: |
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Cheers Peter,
I'll let you know how I get on.
Hopefully I will be back out there in the next few days.
and just for more clarification,
When testing for pressure during gear shifting (I am imagining this as the resistance when shifting into and out of the gears), I am assuming I am doing this with the engine not running?
What seems to be sticking primarily is when I try to shift out of forward into neutral (requiring a shift into reverse, then neutral to actually disenguage).
Last question (yeah right!)- when sailing (with my reverse gear box) without the engine running what is the correct thing to do with the gears? I've read the manual says for sailing and centrifugal clutches to 'brake or wedge the clutch drum'.
I have been putting the gear into neutral, however a couple of times on saturday (because of sticking gears?) the prop shaft began spinning with a sort of vibration (from gear box??) that required quick fiddling with the gears (back and forward) to make it stop.
What am I meant to be doing?
Thanks,
Hans. |
Peter Ogborne
Senior Member
Username: peterogborne
Post Number: 233
Registered: 09-2002
| | Posted on Monday, October 29, 2007 - 05:39 pm: |
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Adjust the pressure or resistance whilst the engine is not running.
It is obvious from your discription that the cone is sticking.Be prepared that at some stage water may have entered the gear box .There could be some corrosion on the cone causing sticking ,could also account for the vibration.All possible, sorry to throw them at you.I would first adjust the forward /reverse .If that does not work then flush out the gear box with kero....run it for a short time ,it wont hurt for a short run with the kero in it. |
Hans Poutsma
Member
Username: hansp77
Post Number: 27
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, November 11, 2007 - 05:19 am: |
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Update-
finally got out to the boat today.
Found where to fill the gear box, drain it, and the centering adjustment hex-head bolt-
of course, the only size allen key I was missing from my set was the one I needed... so I drained the gear box and sure enough- creamy white milky oil- and not very much of it either.
I drained it and flushed it out with kero, running the engine with the kero in it each time, about 4 times. When doing this I tried to shift into gear and it was imposible.
Then I re-filled with oil (standard engine oil for older pre-85 cars?? hope this is alright) and got it running again. This time it shifted in and out of gears relatively easily, with little noticable sticking.
There does seem to be some extra vibration when in reverse, so I will try to adjust the centering adjustment next weekend.
Now a couple of things to consider and some questions-
how did the water get in there?
How much oil should the gear box take- where is the dipstick- and is the hole I can see on the gear shift column thingy (just above and on the flywheel side of the throtle control lever) the place where the dipstick should be and water has gotten in from leaking down from the deck/gear fitting?
yes, pictures would help, but sorry, no camera again this time.
I estimate that the milky oil that came out was about 250ml, and the amount that I re-filled it with was around 500ml. It seemed like it could have taken more.
and lastly, as an aside- does anyone have any special ways to clean up their spark plugs? I have a little mini sand-blasting thing that the previous owner used to use but it doesn't work anymore.
Thanks guys,
Hans. |
Hans Poutsma
Member
Username: hansp77
Post Number: 28
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 05, 2008 - 07:48 pm: |
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long overdue follow up.
Continued Gearbox trouble.
As of yesterday I cannot shift out of neutral into either forward or reverse. Over going away for christmas holidays omething has locked up.
I can spin the prop-shaft freely with my hand so the whole thing has not seized, I just cannot get it into gear.
One suspicion (and hope) is that water may have leaked down the control collum and it may 'simply' be that top unit that has seized?
This top unit seems a lot easier to get off and work on...
but my fear is, that this feels pretty similar to how it felt when I was cleaning the gear box out with Kero and it wouldn't shift into gear... that problem got solved then at the end of the cleaning process by the final addition of new oil.
if it is an actual internal gear/cone problem and there is no way to fix it without dismantling then this will be very dismaying.
I have very little working space to remove only the gear box (and even if I could get it off, getting it back on may prove impossible), and thus would probably have to consider removing the whole engine to work on it...
meaning while its out I should probably consider doing a rebuild...
meaning I have to ask myself if this engine is worth it... a question I don't want to have to ask...
bugger.
any advice at all would be greatly appreciated.
If this old thread doesn't get any hits I will start a new one.
Even suggestions of any mechanic or likewise skilled individual in the Melbourne area that I could pay to check this out and hand me the verdict.
on the bitter/sweet positive side, the engine is running just great now!
EDIT- by the way, I have tried loosening off the adjustment bolt, to either side and still cannot shift.
I am considering draining and refilling the gear box again- any considerations on something to flush it out and dissolve/free the corrosion?
I am considering trying to remove the control collumn- any reason why this is a bad Idea?
Thannx, Hans. |
Hans Poutsma
Member
Username: hansp77
Post Number: 29
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 05, 2008 - 11:00 pm: |
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after reading through a lot of other advise regarding stuck gear boxes,
Do I try to give the shaft/coupling a good belt?
or is this only when it is stuck IN gear?
Should I be focussing my attempts first on the control collum, or the shaft?
Plus, regarding this, with the shaft moving forward and backward into gears, which way does it move into the forward and revers gear (forward-towards engine, back-towards prop)?
Thanks again,
Hans. |
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