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johnny
Member
Username: johnny
Post Number: 25
Registered: 03-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, September 24, 2006 - 03:09 pm: | 
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In the short time that I have been on this forum it has become very clear to me that there are collectors on this forum that are a wealth of knowledge. I value your opinions very much. I'm trying to write down some of this knowledge pertaining to Detroit Engine Works and related companies for other collectors to be able to view.
Does anyone have any input to this statement?
The following companies two cycle engines either Stationary or marine are known to have certain features or designs that appear to be the same or real close. Detroit Engine Works, Detroit Motor Car Supply Co., Columbia Engine Co., Detroit Boat Co., Michigan Steel Boat Co., Middleditch Engine Co., Bessemer Gas Engine Co., Caille Perfection Motor Co., American Engine Co., Termaat & Monahan Co.
Regards
John |
foxman
Visitor
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 27, 2006 - 07:28 pm: |
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As far as I know Detroit Engine and Michigan Steel boat had a joint venture in that Detroit would supply the engines for Michigan Steel boats. There is one on loan to the Clayton NY Antique Boat Museum. About 1910 there was some sort of General Motors style attempt to bring together a whole bunch of boat and engine builders but it turned out to be a scam and sunk a number of well known names in the biz, including Truscott. As a long time collector of Cailles I know they never had any connection with any other manufacturers. Adolph Caille did it his way, always. |
johnny
Member
Username: johnny
Post Number: 26
Registered: 03-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 27, 2006 - 08:37 pm: |
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Foxman,
Thank's for the info, I had some what figured out that Detroit was suppling the engines for Michigan Steel boat Co. due to the engine tags having the name of the boat Co. and the patent to the boat design and no info about the engine its self. I also have a advertisement that states they used Detroit engines. However I wasn't aware that some kind of plan was created to bring the boat companies together with the engine companies.
Do you know if this was the case with the Detroit Boat Co.? Seems to be very little information on this company. I would like to see one of their engine tags but I don't know of anyone that has engine with their tag.
I learned today from the marine engine forum on Harry's Old Engines that Detroit and Little Giant may of had some kind of connection. It seems that a gentlemen has photos of a marine engine that looks like a early model detroit but it has a Little Giant engine tag on it and it looks like its was that way originally. anyone have any input? I can post some photos if anyone is interested.
Foxman, Do you remember where you got the information about the boat Companies and the engine Companies.? from literature or word of mouth?
John Davis
[email protected]
http://www.antiquengines.com/Detroit_Engine_Works_Menu.htm |
richarddurgee
Senior Member
Username: richarddurgee
Post Number: 1229
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, September 28, 2006 - 01:21 am: |
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Look at the Caille Inboard post, it saved having to repost the photo ads !
I have more notes as to your questions above, will include them in a future post ! |
johnny
Member
Username: johnny
Post Number: 27
Registered: 03-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, September 28, 2006 - 07:24 am: |
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Richard,
I went and looked at the Caille Inboard post, Very interesting. I had read some of this info before I believe I got it from Doug Kimball maybe he copied it from here. I'm not sure. Did you by chance see the photos of the Caille Perfection Stationary engine on my site that Jim McCracken sent me? looks almost identical to the Detroits except the governor arms are a little different.
I am very interested in Detroit Engine Works and the related companies on Jefferson Ave. Have you ever seen any patents by Ben J. Middleditch? I did some research a while back on patents at the university of Central Florida. I searched Middleditch name from 1879 through 1910 found only one patent (0577739) issued to Ben J. Middleditch and Edward J. Frost and it was for a mechanism that regulates natural gas. According to C.H.Wendel Ben J. Middleditch started his machine shop business in 1880. Do I need to search the patents further back then 1879?
Regards
John |
searcher
Senior Member
Username: searcher
Post Number: 149
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, September 28, 2006 - 10:46 am: |
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The following information was taken directly off the float chamber cover of a two piece injector used on Detroit family engines.
GASOLINE, KEROSENE, DISTILLATE, NAPTHA, ALCOHOL
PATENTED JULY 6, 1909
THE PETERSON AUTOMATIC FUEL INJECTOR
FOR TWO CYCLE ENGINES
MF'D BY BEN'J. MIDDLEDITCH, DETROIT, MICH., USA
FOR DETROIT ENGINE WORKS
I have not looked up the patent yet. Typically, there are six or seven hundred patents issued on any given date so it takes a while to sort through them. The MF'D FOR DETROIT ENGINE WORKS might indicate that Middleditch's involvment was only with the fuel injector, not the Detroit engines themselves. Will do some more research. |
johnny
Member
Username: johnny
Post Number: 29
Registered: 03-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, September 28, 2006 - 10:05 pm: |
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Foxman,
I was looking back over our post tonight and I read something I didn't catch the first time I was reading your post. I copied and pasted it below.
--------------------------------------------------
"As a long time collector of Cailles I know they never had any connection with any other manufacturers. Adolph Caille did it his way, always."
---------------------------------------------------
Are you sure about this statement? The reason I ask is some of the Caille marine engines look just like a number of other marine engines, Detroits, Termaat & Monahan, Etc... Patents 859186 and 825023 show that caille used the timing lever controller and the engine condenser exhaust systems that were developed and patented by L.J.Monahan for Termaat & Monahan Co. Also if you look at the Caille Perfection two cycle vertical Stationary engines they are Identical to Detroit Engine Works stationary engines except for the governor arms are a little different. Sure looks like Caille may have been involved with the Jefferson Ave Companies and maybe more...
John Davis |
foxman
Visitor
| | Posted on Saturday, September 30, 2006 - 09:18 pm: |
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I have to be careful here. Caille may have had little connection to other manufactuers but they did a lot of contract engine building for private brands sellers. They built Cameron Waterman's first outboard run in 1906. The built private brand outboards for Motorgo (Sears)among others. Chances are that if the engines are similar Caille may have built all or part of the engines for other companies and then the purchaser may have simply marketed them or added their own parts to finish it off. The engineering in Caille outboards is very strange (i.e. punch locking nuts and bolts to save what? the weight and cost of lock washers?) and does not seem to indicate much technical open-mindedness. |
foxman
Visitor
| | Posted on Saturday, September 30, 2006 - 09:37 pm: |
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Also I think what you're asking about is whether all of these companies are related. I remember than Termaat and Monahan morphed into another well known engine builder and a search through this site should tell you what that was. Caille was never connected either as a successor or affiliate to these companies, to my knowledge although it is apparent that Caille may have used some of their products in its engines. This was normal, Caille outboards used Eisemann coils and Tillotson carbs. Caille officially started producing boat engines in 1907, (the 1906 Waterman job was a special contract). I heard the story about the failed boat and engine combine dockside at a boat show and I don't remember who it was but he had obviously done the research. It appears to have probably been more the work of an ambitious but not very effective promoter. This took place sometime about 1910 or 1911. |
richarddurgee
Senior Member
Username: richarddurgee
Post Number: 1232
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Monday, October 02, 2006 - 12:12 pm: |
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Foxman
Interesting this failed combine, I have wondered what the real story was for some time now ! these are some notes i've taken but certainly a lot more to know !
By 1912 The "National Boat and Engine Company" is listed and Truscott and Racine as a part of the Company, within Months these names show up in different publications
Truscot Boat Mfg Co. & Auto Suppy Co. 1913
Truscott- Pierce Engine Co. 1913
By late 1913 the listing was The Racine-Truscott-Shell Lake Boat Manufacturing Company and they closed down in 1915. That was the final end of The Truscott Engine Co. and The Racine Boat Manufacturing Company. |
richarddurgee
Senior Member
Username: richarddurgee
Post Number: 1233
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Monday, October 02, 2006 - 12:38 pm: |
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Johnny
In the above post you mention The Detroit Boat Co., they were a very old mfgr I have seen ads as early as 1901,in one of these early ads they mentioned that they were powered by Electro-Vapor Engines ! in my data base the only Engine mfgr that used that trade name was Racine Boat Mfgr Co. in the late 1800's to about 1903 ? Detroit engines were used in later years ! |
johnny
Advanced Member
Username: johnny
Post Number: 35
Registered: 03-2006
| | Posted on Monday, October 02, 2006 - 01:59 pm: |
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Richard,
Are you talking about Detroit Boat Co. or Detroit Boat Works? Two different companies...
John |
richarddurgee
Senior Member
Username: richarddurgee
Post Number: 1234
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Monday, October 02, 2006 - 05:16 pm: |
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Johnny
Detroit Boat Works ! ---------
I will be home on wednesday and may have some info on Detroit Boat Co.?? |
richarddurgee
Senior Member
Username: richarddurgee
Post Number: 1235
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 03, 2006 - 10:15 pm: |
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The address tells what engines were in these Boats !
1911
1912
 |
johnny
Advanced Member
Username: johnny
Post Number: 38
Registered: 03-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 04, 2006 - 10:56 am: |
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Richard,
Thank's for the info on Detroit Boat Co. You should do a book on the identification and history of early marine engines and boat manufactures in your spare time....(SMILE). You have so much literature and knowledge on this subject and with a little help from your Oldmarineengine.com friends it would be a peice of cake.
John
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richarddurgee
Senior Member
Username: richarddurgee
Post Number: 1246
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 10, 2006 - 12:51 pm: |
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Detroit Boat Co. 1908
This was in a revue of the displays of the January 1908 Chicago boat show !
 |
Randy Dunlap
Visitor
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 10, 2006 - 06:36 pm: |
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Does anyone have a picture of a Detroit Motor Works Engine about 2 horse power?
Thanks,
Randy |
richarddurgee
Senior Member
Username: richarddurgee
Post Number: 1248
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 10, 2006 - 07:33 pm: |
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Go to the Search heading at the top of this page-- type in "Detroit" should be a lot of info there !
1907 Detroit ad !
 |
johnny
Advanced Member
Username: johnny
Post Number: 40
Registered: 03-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 10, 2006 - 07:36 pm: |
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Randy,
If your looking for photos of a Detroit Marine engines do a search on this site for "Detroit" Go to top of this page click on search type in Detroit in the search for space then go down and change the Messages posted within the last 3 days to 265 days and then go down and click on perform search. you should find a lot of info and photos on Detroit's. When you get done looking at all this stuff on Detroit's then you can look at the site listed below. e-mail me if you have any problems...
[email protected]
Have Fun!
http://www.antiquengines.com/Detroit_Engine_Works_Menu.htm |
johnny
Advanced Member
Username: johnny
Post Number: 41
Registered: 03-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 10, 2006 - 07:38 pm: |
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Richard,
You must have been typing while I was, and you beat me to the draw....
Thank's for posting the Detroit info.. |
johnny
Advanced Member
Username: johnny
Post Number: 42
Registered: 03-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 10, 2006 - 07:42 pm: |
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That's the first clear ledgable advertisement I have seen with the detroit that has four holes in the flywheel. The four hole flywheels must have been on the early Detroit marine engines. |
Luke Martin
Visitor
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 25, 2008 - 02:46 pm: |
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I am looking for an info on a boat I am about to auction off. It is a boat made by Micigan Sttel boat company it is 14 ft. long and actually fastens together. A take down sorta boat. Does anyony have an idea on years made?? Thanks Luke |
johnny
Senior Member
Username: johnny
Post Number: 161
Registered: 03-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 25, 2008 - 05:40 pm: |
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Luke,
There doesn't seem to be a lot of info on the Internet on the Michigan Steel Boats or the company. I believe that this engine forum along with Richard Durgee, Scott Peters and my website probably has the most info on the Michigan Steel Boat Co. Have you done a search on this forum? I will list my website below. Once you are there look in the Michigan Steel Boat Co. section and the Detroit History section for info.
At this time I do not know of away to date your boat unless it has a engine in it then we might be able to give you an approximant date of the engine.
I would very much like to see some photos of your boat if possible? Where are you going to auction the boat at? Also I was wondering how you know that it was made by the Michigan Steel Boat Co.? Does it have a tag? Sorry for so many questions but you just don't see these boats that often.
Michigan Steel Boat Company was organized in 1900 and incorporated on December 27, 1901, in Detroit, Wayne County. The company filed its notice of dissolution on December 8, 1920.
http://www.antiquengines.com/Detroit_Engine_Works_Menu.htm
Regards
John Davis |
richarddurgee
Senior Member
Username: richarddurgee
Post Number: 1668
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 25, 2008 - 06:10 pm: |
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*
This is a 1913 ad I don't see Luke's boat listed.
I'll see what else I can find !
* |
Ellis Knight
Visitor
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 02, 2008 - 07:11 pm: |
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Hello could some one give me a rough price for a restored 1919 Caille 3 HP marine engige. Thanks |
solarrog
Senior Member
Username: solarrog
Post Number: 301
Registered: 03-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 02, 2008 - 07:23 pm: |
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Ellis its not possible from the information provided, can you send pictures and contact me off list? Prices change in different area's
where is it? which currency? |
OdieQ
Visitor
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 17, 2009 - 09:12 am: |
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we have a 1920's to 1930's outboard motor that we would like more info about it's a eisemann model # 82D serial Number is #1582 as far as we can tell it has everthing we also would like to know if we sold it how much should we ask for. |
johnny
Senior Member
Username: johnny
Post Number: 175
Registered: 03-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 17, 2009 - 09:27 am: |
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Richard what happened to boat # 88 in the above ad? |
solarrog
Senior Member
Username: solarrog
Post Number: 349
Registered: 03-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 17, 2009 - 04:55 pm: |
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Odie Q
The name Eisemann is the magneto manufactor, Not the motor manufactor. I might be able to at least ID it if you post a picture. Then you can search the value in your area on the net
Roger |
johnny
Senior Member
Username: johnny
Post Number: 176
Registered: 03-2006
| | Posted on Saturday, February 21, 2009 - 08:14 pm: |
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If anyone would like to see a real interesting photo pertaining to Detroit Engine Works, Detroit Boat Co. & Michigan Steel Boat Co. then click on the link below. Once the link loads go to the image box to the left of the photo and click on 3936 x 3137 this will make the photo very large so you may have to give it some time to load. Then go to the upper right hand corner of the photo and read the sign then come back down to the bottom of the photo and look through the plate glass windows to see what is setting in the show room. You will probably be wondering why there are some Model T car bodies on display along with the boats and engine. All the companies on the sign were owned by Wadsworth Manufacturing Co. who also produced the model T bodies for Ford and a few other automobile companies. The car bodies were manufactured in this same factory.
This photo is copy write protected by the Michigan Library and is part of the Burton Historical Collection.
http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/i/image/image-idx?id=S-DPA1IC-X-EB02G190]EB02G190. TIF |
richarddurgee
Senior Member
Username: richarddurgee
Post Number: 2032
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Monday, February 23, 2009 - 08:03 am: |
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*
# 88 probably got cut out when I divided the ad in half to enlarge it to be readable ?
* |
