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doug11k
Member
Username: doug11k
Post Number: 14
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, November 12, 2005 - 12:47 pm: | 
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I kind of threw this Knox,acquired yesterday, together to take these photos. 15 hp twin, make & break, Model E. It seems to be stuck pretty good ... previous owner had been soaking it with various mixes & disconnected the one rod that was accessible & tried grease gun w/ no success. If it was run in salt water I don't think it was too long ... water passages pretty good. I haven't quite figured out how everything works yet ... Knox did some weird things. One water pump/ignitor eccentric forward and one ignitor only aft. Two spark advance levers forward also. It appears to be pretty complete as far as I can tell... most of the brass is there & there is a lot of it. Both ignitors are free. Double oiler is smashed. I think a 1" or 1 1/4" Schebler will bolt to flange on manifold & I have spares. A friend has an original 1905 or '07 Knox catalog that has pictures of twins ... I'm not sure of age but don't think it is particularly early. Also not sure of color. There is green, gray & black paint on various parts. Any help on this one will be apppreciated. Finally a Maine engine, although much larger than I usually collect! Richard is going to post photos for me. |
richarddurgee
Senior Member
Username: richarddurgee
Post Number: 896
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, November 12, 2005 - 02:28 pm: |
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Doug's Knox Photos
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searcher
Senior Member
Username: searcher
Post Number: 72
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, November 12, 2005 - 09:23 pm: |
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A typed manuscript by Lawrence Sturtevant,'Camden Saga, Knox Engines and the Men Who Made Them', 1985, indicates that Knox moved engine production from Rockland to a new facility in Camden in 1906. Presumably, Knox used the Camden address after that.
Of those catalogues I have see (1905, 1907, 1909, and c. 1920), the 15 horsepower, two cylinder Knox marine engine first shows up in the 1911 catalogue. A 13 hp two cylinder model shows up in the earlier catalog.
An undated Knox catalog that looks to be in the teens decribes the color of the engines as dark green enamel with trimmings in black enamel.
As to carburetors, Knox did not seem to have any patents on their engines according to Sturtevant but did have several patents on carburetors. I think every reference I have seen indicates that Knox sold their own carburetors on their engines (which is not to say a Schebler could not have been ordered). In fact, Knox made a point of extolling the virtue of their own make of carburetors. Of perhaps a dozen Knox carburetors I have seen first hand, not one of them is exactly like the others, sometimes very close but with some obvious tweak. Clearly, Knox did a lot of tinkering with carburetors. I expect the first carburetor on your Knox was the Knox model 'D' unless the original purchaser special ordered a Schebler. |
andrew
Moderator
Username: andrew
Post Number: 1238
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, November 13, 2005 - 06:07 pm: |
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I had these carburetor pictures on file:
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andrew
Moderator
Username: andrew
Post Number: 1239
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, November 13, 2005 - 06:13 pm: |
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And this from a letterhead, date uncertain:
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richarddurgee
Senior Member
Username: richarddurgee
Post Number: 900
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Monday, November 14, 2005 - 01:18 pm: |
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This is a 1916 ad, looks simlar to Doug's engine above.
Ad mentions leaders for 15 yrs which is what my notes say That in 1901 The engine patents of Elden P. Lamb of the Lamb Gas Engine & Power Company of Portland Maine became the basis for engine mfgring of Rockland Machine Co. ,Rockland maine to become Camden Anchor-Rockland Machine Co. and moved to Camden in 1906-07. Many references to their gas & kerosene carbs over the years.
I have the Lamb patent Numbers if anyone wants to look them up ! |
petedorr
Visitor
| | Posted on Saturday, April 10, 2010 - 05:20 pm: |
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Hello,
I have been trying to find out if what has been past down in family story's is true. My Great Grandfather Henry McNutt Goldrup invented a engine.
Many years ago I had a uncle tell me he didn't know much about it, only that it was called Knox. I have been trying to find if this is the case. A lot of things match up. He was a machinist in Mass. around the turn of the century, and was working in Maine, boat building at the time this engine was made. He lived in Yarmouth when he died in 1932.
Born and raised in New Mexico, and have been a diesel mechanic for more than 25 years. I think it's in my blood. I have worked on just about everything from old 2 strokes to the latest 2010 engines. One thing sure stands out to me. The KNOX engine is one of the first diesel engine's to move the world forward.
If anyone has something to correct or add, please
contact me.
Thanks,
Pete Dorr |
searcher
Senior Member
Username: searcher
Post Number: 425
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, April 10, 2010 - 09:13 pm: |
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Camden Anchor was established by Horatio E. and William G. Alden c.1866. I do not yet know the founders of Rockland Machine but by 1900 John Bird seems to be in control of that company. In 1901, the two companies incorporated as one. Names associated with that incorporation are J. Bird, S.T. Kimball, W.G. Alden, A.D. Bird, A.J. Bird.
I believe the first engine with a Knox tag was produced in 1901. There were earlier engines, apparently designed by John Bird, that appeared in 1899 or 1900. The one extant pre 1901 engine I am aware of does not bear a name but has some unique features that carried over into the early engines that do bear the Knox tag. Bird was still involved in the business in the 1920's. CA-RM did not apply for any patents on the engines. The company did patent, manufacture, and sell several models of carburetors bearing the Knox name. Elden P. Lamb seems to be the primary designer of the carburetors. I am not aware of CA-RM building any diesel engines. The company ceased producing engines in the mid 20's.
There was a company in Springfield, Massachusetts operating at about the same time as CA-RM that also built engines using the Knox name. That company used a variety of titles over time, for instance, Knox Motors Associates, Knox Motor Company, and Knox Valveless Motors. Perhaps that is the company your ancestor was involved in. |
searcher
Senior Member
Username: searcher
Post Number: 426
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, April 10, 2010 - 09:39 pm: |
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I should have noted that Camden Anchor-Rockland Machine primarily built marine engines. The company did build some single cylinder, vertical, stationary engines. It also sold kits that converted the single cylinder marine engine into a stationary engine. The bulk and weight of the CA-RM engines probably excluded their use in automotive applications. |
petedorr
New member
Username: petedorr
Post Number: 2
Registered: 04-2010
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 13, 2010 - 10:19 pm: |
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Thanks for the info. One thing that also has been past down is that the engine that was my grandfather designed and built was taken from him. His engine was installed into a boat and someone stole it. It is believed his engine was built before 1900. If that's the case, I could only hope that someday the truth will be told. He worked very hard(no doubt) to make a name for himself and his family, only to start all over again. By that time a number of company's laying clam to his baby. It's said he died 1932 trying to prove this. At 60 years old it was to much for him. |
jim strickland
Visitor
| | Posted on Friday, May 21, 2010 - 07:20 pm: |
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Strange I have had a single cyclinder Knox 4 HP engine for 15 years and have never seen any information about Knox engines until now. I don't have the ignitor but run it one time with a sparkplug and a wico mag mounted to the crankcase. It was really out of balance and walked around quite a bit. |
searcher
Senior Member
Username: searcher
Post Number: 432
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, May 22, 2010 - 09:05 pm: |
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Jim, I'm accumulating a data base of Knox engines including serial numbers and engine characteristics such as hp, water pump arrangement, carburetor, etc. I would love to add your Knox to the list. The list will be published on this site for all to use once I have enough information to make the list useful. It would be great if you would post on this site photos of the four sides of your engine, the head, and the name tag. If you decide to post photos and find you have difficulty doing it, send them to me at whatever resolution they are in and I will post them for you. Just click on the underlined 'Searcher' on the left side of this box and my email address will pop up. I probably can tell you quite a bit about your engine. |
larry_from_maryland
Senior Member
Username: larry_from_maryland
Post Number: 414
Registered: 07-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, May 23, 2010 - 06:53 pm: |
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I saw a knox at the auction in westmiester years ago and have been looking in all the shows for it to turn up.It was about 3hp and a scaled down version of the one at calvert.It allso had a box like thing where the others above have a round exhaust. A small crack made me not bid high to get it. |
j strickland
Visitor
| | Posted on Sunday, May 23, 2010 - 07:16 pm: |
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Searcher- I tried to contact you through the E-Mail address but I got an error message that it was not sent. Memory faded My knox was a 6 1/2 HP with a ser no of 2842 and a pat pending date Nov 29 1904. Water pump is behind the flywheel. Carb may not be orig. it has a shebler on it. Thanks for your help
Jim |
searcher
Senior Member
Username: searcher
Post Number: 433
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Monday, May 24, 2010 - 12:41 am: |
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Jim,
Both your e-mails came through fine. I'm not sure what happened that one or both came back to you. I tried sending myself an e-mail through the Old Marine Engine site and it worked fine. However, Maine has had problems with Fairpoint Communications, our supplier of internet and phone services, so nothing surprises me.
As to your Knox engine, given the size and weight of the thing, it must have been quite an experience to see it jumping around in an uncontrolled manner.
Your engine is c.1909. Statistics: RPM 425-475, bore 5 1/2", stroke 6 1/4", weight 510 lbs. The original ignitor on that engine was probably bronze and had a support arm for the ignitor electrode (see Photo 1). Bronze was dropped about that time in favor of iron for ignitors. The support arm also seems to have disappeared about that same time.
The original carburetor was probably a Knox Model C and the patent date on the name tag is, in fact, a reference to the patent for the Knox Model C carburetor. To my knowledge, there never were any patents on the engines themselves. There were two primary configurations of the Model C. If there was a bypass port throttle (Photo 2 - bronze disk with the lever), the Model C in Photo 4 was used. If there was no bypass port throttle, the Model C version in Photo 3 was used. The throttle in the bypass port seems to have disappeared by 1909 so I expect your engine was originally equipped with the Model C in Photo 4. That said, the original buyer of your engine may have insisted on and got a Schebler Model D carburetor as original equipment with his new engine. I expect the Schebler was a much better carburetor.
I have Knox SN 2853, just 11 engines later than yours. Other than being a 3 1/2 hp, I expect it is identical to your engine.
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jstrickland
Visitor
| | Posted on Monday, May 24, 2010 - 10:12 am: |
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thanks for the info.My engine does not have the throttle in bypass. My igniter linkage looks identical to that shownm in the photo. My engine has a water cooled exhaust manifold on it. I painted it green with orange around where the head meets the block (raised area) and my flywheel is orange.I can't rember why other than I may have seen orange on it when I got it. I really do appreciate the info. I have had it a long time and knew nothing about it. There was a picture at Owls Head of a Knox. If you ever come across a ignitor for it let me know. I would call if you give out your no. thanks again
Jim |
searcher
Senior Member
Username: searcher
Post Number: 434
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Monday, May 24, 2010 - 10:58 am: |
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As near as I can tell, the original paint on your engine would have been dark green. I believe the flywheel, head, and shaft coupling were painted black. The nearest color to that dark green I have found so far (that is readily available anyway) is Rust-oleum 7733 Dark Hunter Green. That is a gloss enamel. Please note that I have just experimented with this gloss enamel and have not yet painted a whole engine with it to see if it gives an acceptable appearance. Many of these engines were painted 'John Deere' green in recent years. The older John Deere green (1950's and still available) is fairly dark and has less yellow in it than the newer John Deere green so the older color is a little closer to the original Knox green. |
raa
Member
Username: raa
Post Number: 17
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Monday, May 24, 2010 - 07:08 pm: |
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This a few pictures of my 2 1/2 hp Knox not sure of the year. The serial number is 2359 and I found a 06.12 on the timer could that be month and year?
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searcher
Senior Member
Username: searcher
Post Number: 435
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Monday, May 24, 2010 - 10:15 pm: |
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Great photos. One thing that immediately stood out is your engine is set up with the carburetor/exhaust on the port side rather than on the starboard side which is the more common configuration.
Your engine was sold as having an operating speed of 480 RPM and weighing 220 lbs.
It doesn't show well in the photo but I can see that the tail guide on the water pump ends in a fork. That feature seems to have been confined to the smaller engines such as the 2 1/2 and 1 1/2 hp. The forked tail guide is a feature I have not been able to sort out as to dates of production.
The ignitor looks like it is made of bronze, which I would expect, but it does not have the outboard guide for the moveable electrode. Possibly, that ignitor came off a somewhat earlier engine. According to Camden Anchor - Rockland Machine literature, bronze did not hold up well to the heat and apparently tended to crack so the CA-RM ignitors of that period were often replaced.
The carburetor is the correct Model C for your engine. If you look at Photo 4 in my May 24 post, you can see how the carburetor was set up with a brass tube that ran between the carburetor and a cast iron 'stove' that surrounded the exhaust manifold. The heated intake air helped vaporize the fuel.
The forward oil cup, a Lunkenheimer Paragon # 1 1/2 or #2, is probably the original one that came with the engine. The cylinder oil cup would also have been a Lunkenheimer Paragon.
For the time being, I would assign a date of c.1907 to your engine. I say 'for the time being' because I continue to find details that may help me pin the dates down a bit better as time goes on. You have a real nice engine there.
I bought a box of brass odds and ends of marine engine parts several weeks ago. One item in the box was the identical cap that is on the fuel tank you set up with your Knox. Do you know anything about the fuel tank, who made it, etc.? |
raa
Member
Username: raa
Post Number: 18
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Monday, May 24, 2010 - 10:40 pm: |
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I was given a couple of tanks a few years ago which both had the cap and gauge. I would guess the tank was made for a stove which used white gas. I have unable to find any more tanks like that so I made "tooling" and I make my own now. I also made a pattern for a brass support which I have used on all my engines. |
searcher
Senior Member
Username: searcher
Post Number: 436
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 25, 2010 - 09:48 am: |
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I forgot to add a comment regarding the 06.12 marked on your engine. I have not seen such a mark designating month and year on a Knox but never say never when talking about these old engines. While there are some minor features that dictate against a 1912 date for your engine, the biggest one is the way the ignitor operates. By 1909 the ignitor was on a separate eccentric independent of the water pump. Prior to that the ignitor was driven by an arm that came off the water pump shaft, i.e., both the pump and ignitor were driven by the same eccentric. It is a bit hard to see in the photos, but it looks like the ignitor on your engine is driven off the water pump shaft which would make it prior to 1909.
I would love to see some photos of the fuel tanks you make. I have been toying with making some up for my own engines. |
searcher
Senior Member
Username: searcher
Post Number: 437
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 26, 2010 - 11:45 am: |
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Larry,
I have been puzzling over your comment about the Knox you saw having a box like exhaust where the Knoxs shown here have a round exhaust. I quickly went through images from 1901 to 1926 that I have of CA-RM Knox engines and find that all the exhausts shown were round. However, as with any of this old iron, one never says never, and there may be some CA-RM Knox engines out there with square/rectangular cross section exhausts.
Other possibilities include a muffler adapted from another brand of engine or a later workshop made replacement. There was a Knox Motors Associates in Springfield, Mass. that also sold marine engines under the Knox name. To my knowledge, there was never any connection between the Maine and Mass companies but it is possible that the manifolds were a close enough fit to allow them to be adapted to the other brand. Another mystery!
If you ever see that engine again, I would love to have some photos of the muffler, the name tag, and of the engine itself. Thanks. |
larry_from_maryland
Senior Member
Username: larry_from_maryland
Post Number: 418
Registered: 07-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 26, 2010 - 12:02 pm: |
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I been looking for it. That one looked so differant it may be differant co. |
searcher
Senior Member
Username: searcher
Post Number: 511
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Monday, January 02, 2012 - 05:28 pm: |
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A fine stocking stuffer she be.
Knox Model G, c. 1923.
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jb_castagnos
Senior Member
Username: jb_castagnos
Post Number: 639
Registered: 07-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 03, 2012 - 08:09 pm: |
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That's quite a find. About as complete as you can get. I like the 4 strokes, the overhead valves are great. Looks like a grown up YT-2. |
searcher
Senior Member
Username: searcher
Post Number: 512
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 03, 2012 - 09:29 pm: |
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The Model G was sold as a 16hp medium duty engine. At 1000lbs including the reverse gear, one would tend to think of it as a heavy weight. However, the Model F engines were sold as the heavy duty ones. The setup as shown above cost $930 which was a large sum of money at the time (using CPI calculations to equate 1923 buying power with that of 2010). |
miro
Senior Member
Username: miro
Post Number: 587
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 04, 2012 - 08:58 am: |
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I sometimes wonder how many of these engines ( and engines like this one) might have been produced.
To have this engine survive so long with all of its component parts is a wonder - that's for sure.
miro |
jb_castagnos
Senior Member
Username: jb_castagnos
Post Number: 640
Registered: 07-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 04, 2012 - 11:06 pm: |
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I've found a couple of engines fairly complete, looking at them makes me think the owner couldn't have had any kids like me around. |
doug11k
Senior Member
Username: doug11k
Post Number: 78
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 06, 2012 - 08:10 pm: |
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I put that in a CPI calculator. $930 in 1923 was worth $12,303.74 in 2011. Wow! |
