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richarddurgee
Senior Member
Username: richarddurgee
Post Number: 3309
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, May 10, 2014 - 12:51 pm: | 
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Thrall Refined 1909
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jb_castagnos
Senior Member
Username: jb_castagnos
Post Number: 919
Registered: 07-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, May 10, 2014 - 02:17 pm: |
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Thanks Richard, there are several singles and twins in my shop, I own one of the singles. There were different water pump configurations. |
billschaller
Senior Member
Username: billschaller
Post Number: 599
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, May 10, 2014 - 03:49 pm: |
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here's mine
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richarddurgee
Senior Member
Username: richarddurgee
Post Number: 3312
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Monday, May 12, 2014 - 02:16 pm: |
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These are the different Thrall water pump types I could find ? Don't have enough info yet to be able to chronologically date them ?
This is another style water pump but more discussion on these engines on another post
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richarddurgee
Senior Member
Username: richarddurgee
Post Number: 3313
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Monday, May 12, 2014 - 03:02 pm: |
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Different designs of Thralls!
Exhaust at rear of engine
Exhaust and intake port side
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ernie
Senior Member
Username: ernie
Post Number: 1823
Registered: 01-2002
| | Posted on Monday, May 12, 2014 - 05:34 pm: |
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The major differences are Thrall Refined or just Thrall and Thrall Fishback.
The Fishback engines have no external water outlet. If you look close in the pic of the red one you can just see the water outlet tube in the exhaust port. The Fishback engines also all have a pipe thread exhaust port. The red one is mine and the pipe thread was broken off so I welded on a flange. The 2nd, 4th and 7th are Fishbacks. |
billschaller
Senior Member
Username: billschaller
Post Number: 600
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Monday, May 12, 2014 - 08:50 pm: |
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Mine's all three.
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johnny
Senior Member
Username: johnny
Post Number: 471
Registered: 03-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 13, 2014 - 09:02 am: |
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Anyone out there know the history of Thrall Motor Company? When the business started & ended? Who the owners were? What street they were own in Detroit?
Some of my research on Detroit Engine Works shows that Thrall Motor Co. was owned and run by Wadsworth Mfg Co. for a unknown period of time. Wadsworth Mfg Co. is the same company that owned and run Detroit Engine Works, Detroit Motor Car Supply Co., Detroit Boat Co.,Michigan Steel Boat Co., Columbia Engine Co. |
richarddurgee
Senior Member
Username: richarddurgee
Post Number: 3314
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 13, 2014 - 10:25 am: |
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Bill, do you have a photo of the port side of this Thrall, if not, is the exhaust and intake together on that side, and is it a wet exhaust ?
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richarddurgee
Senior Member
Username: richarddurgee
Post Number: 3315
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 13, 2014 - 11:19 am: |
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I guess I threw my own noose over the tree limb when I posted the ad at the top of this thread. have been taking notes on Thrall, Thrall Fishback Co. for over 12 years and still can't put a mfgr date on many of the engines ?
This is what history notes I have and are not written in stone, just a work in progress !
Thrall-Fishback Motor Company seems to have begun making engs in 1904 this is the oldest ad I have and is a supply Co. but the engine is unmistakably a Thrall Fishback Refined, ad dated 1905
Another Company that ties in here is Waterman Marine Motor Co. - Notes from data base-
"George C. Thrall 1905 owner of Taylor Boiler Co.& friend Cameron Waterman made first outboard engine in his boiler shop, Cameron B. Waterman a Yale Attorney Designed the Porto outboard in 1905 formed Co. in 1906, Frank R. Thrall Treasurer and R.W. Fishback general manager ? I still don't know relationship of George C. to Frank R.Thrall ? Also don't know what years Thrall Co. was part of Hugo Scherer and F.E. Wadsworth Conglomerate ?
Appears that Thrall-Fishback were mfging their engines at the same time as employed by Waterman Co. ?
All indications that Thrall Fishback Motor Co. changed name in late 1908 or very early 1909-
1908
Dec 1908
repeat of ad posted earlier
1909
the ad above lists the 37 Front Street as address
but later a 1256 Jefferson Street was referred to ?
Any pre 1908 ads would be helpful and any photos of engines with readable photos of tags would be very appreciated ! Bills engine tag above says Type B so what were other types ??
The blue painted single in above post sure looks to have a Thrall split lower crankcase and mounting arms, but a solid flywheel and a waterman
style jacket ???
Are we having fun or trying to stay awake ??
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billschaller
Senior Member
Username: billschaller
Post Number: 601
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 13, 2014 - 11:20 am: |
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here are my pictures. I do not know if it is a wet exhaust. I am leaving for Portland swap in a half hour, so hope to pick up a few more.
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johnny
Senior Member
Username: johnny
Post Number: 472
Registered: 03-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 13, 2014 - 11:54 am: |
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Thanks for the info Richard. That 1256 Jefferson address is a Detroit Engine Works address. I found some adverts with multiple addresses for Thrall, 37,39,41,55,57 all listed on fort Street East Detroit, Michigan. Also this weird one: Thrall Motor Co. 8-32 Twenty First Street, Detroit, Michigan. Thrall must of had a fairly good size building or buildings up & down Fort Street with that many different numbers? |
richarddurgee
Senior Member
Username: richarddurgee
Post Number: 3316
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 13, 2014 - 01:03 pm: |
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Ernie
Bills photo above shows a pipe nipple above the ID tag is it an anomaly , is his type B serial 1634 different from earlier models, can't put it in any order have no other tags on file ???
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ernie
Senior Member
Username: ernie
Post Number: 1824
Registered: 01-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 13, 2014 - 02:52 pm: |
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Richard,
The fitting above the tag is cooling water out.
This is an engine I used to own.
S/N is 1557 as near as I can make out.
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richarddurgee
Senior Member
Username: richarddurgee
Post Number: 3317
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 13, 2014 - 05:44 pm: |
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Ernie
Thanks for your input it does help sort out these engines !
Looks as if the crankshaft and crankcases are the same, difference is the type of cylinder bolted on ? Can't figure logic in making two separate types at the same time both rated 3 Hp ??
I have the feeling I'm missing something ?
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ernie
Senior Member
Username: ernie
Post Number: 1825
Registered: 01-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 13, 2014 - 08:01 pm: |
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Torque??? I seem to remember that the model B is a little larger than the red one without an external water outlet.
The crankcases are also different. The transfer port on the model B is on the side the other style is at the front. |
richarddurgee
Senior Member
Username: richarddurgee
Post Number: 3318
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 13, 2014 - 10:55 pm: |
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1910
Shows the gear boxes driving water pump and timer
UH OH -- what's this an iron enbloc THRALL ??
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ernie
Senior Member
Username: ernie
Post Number: 1826
Registered: 01-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 14, 2014 - 07:51 am: |
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You have uncovered adds that make this even more complicated. As I posted above quite a few of us thought that they were Thralls if they had a side exhaust and a Fishback if they had the aft screw in exhaust.
Never mind the gear driven water pump and now the enblock engine...
Thanks for all the reasearch
Ernie |
richarddurgee
Senior Member
Username: richarddurgee
Post Number: 3320
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 14, 2014 - 10:10 am: |
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As Paul Harvey would say "And here's the rest of the story" But - This story isn't over yet ??
1910 Machinery publication commenting on unigue
marine engines at the 1910 New York Boat Show !
1910
If someone was going to mothball a marine engine for future generations would one of these not be an ideal candidate ?
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richarddurgee
Senior Member
Username: richarddurgee
Post Number: 3321
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 14, 2014 - 11:05 am: |
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Here's The Rest of the story !
R.W. Fishback left Thrall Company in last month of 1908, He partnered with two others with intentions of manufacturing automobiles.
They founded the "Savage Automobile Company" in less than two years the three men were arrested by the United states government for mail Fraud !
Seems they were selling automobiles to dealers and mailing contracts, but their intentions was to use the money to actually start the manufacturing of the auto, got the cart ahead of the horse !
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Thrall Motor Company
The 1910 New York Boat show mentioned in the above post was in Feb 1910.
This article was in Oct 6,1910 "Motor World" Publication
Don't know if the receivership stopped production
or what-- maybe more to the story ??
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richarddurgee
Senior Member
Username: richarddurgee
Post Number: 3322
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 14, 2014 - 11:49 am: |
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The Spokesman Publication
The assets of the Thrall Motor Co. sold to Edmond J. Stafford for $5,300 at recievers sale By Detroit Trust Co Dec 1910.
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david_doyle
Member
Username: david_doyle
Post Number: 21
Registered: 03-2013
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 14, 2014 - 03:21 pm: |
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Great thread, thanks for sharing,
I am en- Thrall-ed. |
