| Author |
Message |
    
byron
Member
Username: byron
Post Number: 5
Registered: 08-2009
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 15, 2010 - 08:43 am: | 
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Hi All,
I have a simplex engine that I cannot get started. It was second hand when I got it and was told it worked. It will crank over with the electric start but it won't fire. I have had the occassional backfire. I recently was able to get a replacement manifold for it(see previous post) which I have fitted and seems fine. I have tested the magneto and can get good sparks from the plugs as it turns over. The carby seems fine and I have tried all sorts of adjutsments on it. My concern at this point is that the stroke is over 4" and yet the pistons only seem to be moving about an inch .. is that correct? Any other ideas on what I need to do to get this engine firing????
Cheers
Byron |
russell
Advanced Member
Username: russell
Post Number: 31
Registered: 08-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 15, 2010 - 02:28 pm: |
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Hi Byron! Quickest diagnostic you can do is "poke with a spoke" -an old tried technique for timing an engine. Traditionally you used a bike spoke down the plug hole, but a thin screwdriver or summink will do. Take the plugs out, put your probe down one cylinder at a time (keeping it from disappearing on you) and turn her over by hand (not the starter button). You can check that the sparks are coming in at the right time. If the engine stroke is 4", your logic should tell you that you are gonna see your probe drop 4" from TDC to BDC. If this doesn't happen, you's a'gonna have to start out with a spanner from the top and keep undoing nuts and bolts to find out why the piston/s aren't moving. It's gotta be something broke or something not tightened up in there. Hope it didn't get a lung full of water from that old manifold, Best of luck! |
todd_vidgen
Senior Member
Username: todd_vidgen
Post Number: 181
Registered: 03-2008
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 15, 2010 - 05:59 pm: |
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Is the Magneto fitted correctly?
Sometimes they are 180 deg out because either
the maggy is off another motor that has been
disassembled and then rebuilt with the maggy
drive incorrectly assembled with the end result
being the removal of the pin on the drive face
of the maggy so it will fit in 180 degs out.
Or someone has pulled the maggy apart and reassembled it incorrectly.Resulting in the same
"fix"with the pin.
Are you sure you are not looking at the valves
when you are talking about piston stroke,because
the plug holes are above them.
I would think that 4 inches of stoke verses 1 inch
of piston movement would equal a lot clunking and
banging with with a total lock up somewhere in the
rotation.If your getting at back fire that would
indicate a degree of compression which would in
turn suggest that the piston/stroke issue might
not be the problem.I would look at 1 timing
2fuel(they will pop a bit with not enough fuel)
3air leaks around manifold 4 valve seating(the valves suffer from rust on the stems and faces
especially if you have had water probs with the manifold |
marks
Senior Member
Username: marks
Post Number: 124
Registered: 03-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 15, 2010 - 06:35 pm: |
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Hi Byron,
Make sure you don't have an exhaust valve that's stuck open. It's a common problem with these engines if they have been sitting around for a while and probably more so given the situation with the manifold.
Apart from that I agree with Russell and Todd.
Cheers,
Mark |
johnoxley
New member
Username: johnoxley
Post Number: 2
Registered: 04-2010
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 15, 2010 - 07:08 pm: |
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Hi - crank the engine with your thumb over the plug hole - this will test for compression. Then plug #1 spark plug hole and turn motor by hand until you feel compression, then put something thin like typing paper in the points gap. Continue cranking to near Top Dead Centre piston #1 - the paper should release just before TDC as the points open. Then look at the rotor arm - it should point to the spark plug connection for #1 cylinder. If not, magneto is connected out of place. |
byron
Member
Username: byron
Post Number: 6
Registered: 08-2009
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 15, 2010 - 11:21 pm: |
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Hi all,
Thanks for all the suggestions so far. I may have it wrong - when I have taken off the spark plug and looked through the hole am I seeing the valve moving not the piston? It would not surprise me if an exhaust valve is stuck open - where would I find that in the engine?? I'll also check the magneto again - there are some very helpful suggestions for a engine novice like myself.
Cheers
Byron |
gregoryan
Senior Member
Username: gregoryan
Post Number: 66
Registered: 09-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 15, 2010 - 11:53 pm: |
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Where are you?, perhaps someone could give you a visit!?! |
byron
Member
Username: byron
Post Number: 7
Registered: 08-2009
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 16, 2010 - 12:44 am: |
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Hi There,
I am down here in melbourne australia in the suburb of aspendale - would be great to have a visitor that knows something about engines! |
senojn
Senior Member
Username: senojn
Post Number: 55
Registered: 08-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 16, 2010 - 06:44 pm: |
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Hello Byron
Just to put you in the 'picture' this will give you a better understanding of what is inside .
Regards
Neil |
qwilkin
Member
Username: qwilkin
Post Number: 19
Registered: 08-2009
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 16, 2010 - 06:53 pm: |
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I have recently discovered a Burzacot made by Roseberry was on a farm any ideas . It turns over okay
Quinton |
byron
Member
Username: byron
Post Number: 8
Registered: 08-2009
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 16, 2010 - 11:55 pm: |
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Hi Neil,
Many thanks for the photo - it puts it in perspective for me (very useful) - I'll give it another try and if it doesn't start I may have to resort to pulling stuff apart. Does anyone know if the head gaskets are reusable on these sort of engines in case I do need to pull it apart?
Cheers
Byron |
laurie_d
Advanced Member
Username: laurie_d
Post Number: 46
Registered: 10-2009
| | Posted on Thursday, June 17, 2010 - 12:39 am: |
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Byron,
I'm a tad late coming in on this one but feel the need to add my twopence worth. Firstly,
I'd check that the starter is wired correctly. The Simplex turns clockwise when looking at it from the front. I'm not sure about the singles but for a twin it should not matter if the spark is 180 degrees out as they fire two sparks per cylinder for each cycle. Make sure the right lead is connected to the right plug (no 1 cylinder spark on mine has the distributor rotor facing close to vertical). I can vouch for the probe suggested by Russell. These motors may be a bit harder to reach hung up exhaust valves than the Clae's but once you figure out if the valve is actually hung up you should be able to free them with either a suitably bent screwdriver or similar (plenty of spray lubricant and a sound tap on top of the valve when at the top of the compression stroke - but use care to to strike at the edge of the valve). Otherwise remove the side cover plate (behind the carby) and free them by rotating from the inside). Some of that spray is a good way to start the motor too when it's cold.
Once you are confident that the valves are closing and the correct lead is connected to each plug, and with some priming of fuel, the motor should start with no more than a flick of the flywheel. I trust you'll keep us posted. Laurie |
marks
Senior Member
Username: marks
Post Number: 125
Registered: 03-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, June 17, 2010 - 06:38 am: |
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Byron,
Don't start pulling things apart just yet i.e. removing the head until you've gone through all of the suggestions mentioned in this post as nine times out of ten they will get it going. Just be methodical and take your time.
You should take it as a given that the head gasket is not reusable, sometimes they are but it depends, hence don't pull it apart yet.
Good luck with it,
Mark S. |
marks
Senior Member
Username: marks
Post Number: 126
Registered: 03-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, June 17, 2010 - 06:45 am: |
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Heh Laurie,
Good advice, except "but use care to to strike at the edge of the valve"? I'm sure you mean don't strike the edge of the valve OR stike the center of the valve.
I have suitably bent tent peg for the same, came with a putter I had years ago. Works great although both ends look like mushrooms.
Mark S. |
byron
Member
Username: byron
Post Number: 9
Registered: 08-2009
| | Posted on Friday, June 18, 2010 - 03:05 am: |
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Hi All,
I will be working on the engine tomorrow - many thanks for all the great advice so far - will follow your leads - they have been great - will keep you posted on how I get on!
Cheers
Byron |
byron
Member
Username: byron
Post Number: 10
Registered: 08-2009
| | Posted on Thursday, June 24, 2010 - 10:20 am: |
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Hi All,
Well you guys were right - I had some friends around who know a bit about engines and they found that No 1 cylinder had no compression. We decided to take the head off and after a lot of effort got it off. It appears that the exhaust valves were a bit stuck open as suggested (they had muck around them). I have put up a couple of links to photos for those interested (sorry will work out how to get up photos like Neil someday)
http://picasaweb.google.com.au/lh/photo/UaHbyALpOJQbOKxOkhqy6A?feat=directlink
http://picasaweb.google.com.au/lh/photo/T1mN-4Cfucvv7z0suBEAOw?feat=directlink
http://picasaweb.google.com.au/lh/photo/yxbpOwJ2vgA5SFulZb4YeQ?feat=directlink
I have decided to lift the engine out of the boat and give it a good clean - there appears to be some muck in it, the water chambers have some clogging and may need some reseating to the valves or at least cleaning. It hasn't run since I got it four or so years ago while I have been restoring around it).
Then I may be ready to try to restart and have a reliable engine. I am open to suggestions - now that I am this far - is there anything I should not do or should do. Do I need to get the head machined or will a clean up be ok? Over to you for your thoughts.
Cheers
Byron |
marks
Senior Member
Username: marks
Post Number: 128
Registered: 03-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, June 24, 2010 - 06:41 pm: |
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Hi Byron,
Just my 2 cents worth here. I probably wouldn't take the engine out of the boat unless I wanted to do some major work on it such as:
1) Install hardened exhaust valve seats so it can be run on todays fuels without lead. You can use a "valve saver" additive if you don't want to do this. This all assumes that your engine doesn't have hardened valve seats already, it's difficult to tell from your pictures but I don't think it does.
2) Replace rings and give the bores a hone.
3) Change the the bigend and crank bearings.
All of this is a reasonable amount of work and effort with hardened valve seats and probably cylinder hone requiring a trip to the machine shop.
If it was my engine I'd probably just remove the valves, clean them up on a wire brush and use some valve grinding paste to reseat them. If you do this keep the valves in order and fit back to the orginal position. This is simple to do and will not really cost anything except valve grinding paste, a proper suction tool, head gasket and some of your time. This assumes that things such as the rings and bearings are Ok which it is impossible to tell just from photos.
By all means give the water jackets a bit of a clean but resist the temptation to use acid or hot tank them.
Others may have their own opinion(s) or suggestions.
Cheers,
Mark S. |
gregoryan
Senior Member
Username: gregoryan
Post Number: 67
Registered: 09-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, June 24, 2010 - 06:51 pm: |
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Great Pics [with the links] you have taken, very clean engine and hull! Looks like a yacht with those bilge shapes? Nice to see these old engine's still installed.
I have one too, see below, the earlier model with the square gearbox.
 |
laurie_d
Advanced Member
Username: laurie_d
Post Number: 47
Registered: 10-2009
| | Posted on Thursday, June 24, 2010 - 08:23 pm: |
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Byron et al, I'm with Mark on this. You need to consider the ollowing:
a. Are the valve seats and valves serviceable without the need for relacement. You may be able to replace the exhaust valves with stailnless ones without removing the engine. Just remove the block.
b. What condition are the rings and bore? I'd check measure the bore and look for scoring etc.
c. How are the big ends? I'm not sure about the motor you have Mark but on the earlier ones (like Greg's above) they are built like brick outhouses and they weither have tio be rusty or had a lot of work to be a problem.
So again, I'd suggest lifting the block if you are reseating or replacing the valves and then deciding if anything more is needed.
Laurie |
byron
Member
Username: byron
Post Number: 11
Registered: 08-2009
| | Posted on Friday, June 25, 2010 - 05:38 am: |
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Thanks guys - again very informative advice - I have the valve reseating paste so I might give that a go and a general clean up and see how its looking. The pistons were holding water when we took the head off which my friends thought was probably a good sign (ie it was not leaking through)and there was no scoring so that was a good sign. Great photo Gregoryan - yes my engine is in a 21ft carvel hull yacht that is about 60 - 70 years old - it was a traditional ocean fishing yacht. I'll let you all know how things progress!
Cheers
Byron |
byron
Member
Username: byron
Post Number: 12
Registered: 08-2009
| | Posted on Saturday, June 26, 2010 - 05:38 am: |
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Hi All,
Well a mate had an engine trolley hoist so I took the engine out today. It will be easier and in some ways - quicker to work on it. There are three things in particular I would value some advice on:
1. The No 1 cylinder had little compression - I am going to clean and reseat the valves - how do you know if you need new rings?
2. There appears to be fibreglass over the sump?? Any ideas why this would be done? Is it likely to stay on if the engine heats up - not sure if the sump would heat up? Any ideas?
3. If you had the engine out is there anything else I should do to the engine while it is out??
Would value your thoughts.
Cheers
Byron |
todd_vidgen
Senior Member
Username: todd_vidgen
Post Number: 183
Registered: 03-2008
| | Posted on Sunday, June 27, 2010 - 06:12 pm: |
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If you have it out ,pull it down and do the lot.
Its much better to install a fully serviced/rebuilt
motor and have peace of mind,than to just do some
and then have to pull it out shortly after,undoing
all of the previous effort.Do It Once,Do It Well!
This includes,rust removal,and painting,of both the
motor and bilge area.
Being in a low position in the bilge,the fiberglass
covering the sump is either 1- A protective measure to stop the sump from rusting out from
bilge water slopping over it.
Or 2- A repair because bilge water has already
got to it.
Either way,I would fix the cause of water in the bilge if you haven't already.
Water in the bore is never a good sign,as some will have got down into the sump area,and as it is heavier than oil,is picked up by the oil pump
and pumped through the oil galleries to the bearings etc. Clean it,strip it,clean it again,
asses it,fix it.
Todd |
byron
Member
Username: byron
Post Number: 13
Registered: 08-2009
| | Posted on Sunday, June 27, 2010 - 10:59 pm: |
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Thanks Todd,
I think the water in the bore was from when we pulled the head off as it is a water cooled engine and it went everywhere. I have had the engine inspection plates off and have cleaned out heaps of gunk from the water cooling passages - anything else I should do to the passages - to assist with the clean out? I notice that one of the bores is oily and one is dry - does that mean that the oily one needs new rings? If so how do you go about the sizing for new rings or is that a specialist job?? Although a pain it has already been worth taking the engine out - I was able to get the large flywheel off that was stuck on so it was a bit of a win.
Cheers
Byron |
laurie_d
Advanced Member
Username: laurie_d
Post Number: 49
Registered: 10-2009
| | Posted on Sunday, June 27, 2010 - 11:22 pm: |
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Byron et al,
Perhaps the oil in the cylinder (on the bore) was because someone had put some in during the storage period (eg to free a hung up valve or stop it hanging up)? A simple check is to put enough light oil in each cylinder to check whether it is leaking down the sides of the 'pots'. The tolerances on Simplex motors are such that petrol or diesel should go through fairly quickly but oil should not. Todd mentioned the oil pump in his message above but I understand only the early models (not yours) had oil pumps? Re the GRP on the sump: From my understanding the sump of the motor should not get hot enough for the fibreglass to part company with the sump but I prefer a good covering with paint and then fish oil over that. Apart from checking the rings/bore with the oil test and a skilled engineer eyeballing them when you lift the block I'd have the same person check the big ends by hand before going any further. I understand that the pistons on your motor were 3 7/8" from a red Holden motor (I think it was the 179 ci) so rings (and oversize rings etc)should be available. Regards Laurie |
byron
Member
Username: byron
Post Number: 14
Registered: 08-2009
| | Posted on Monday, June 28, 2010 - 07:01 am: |
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wow - thanks Laurie ... that's a great help. I'll see if I can get someone to have a look at the engine. Looks like I am on the right track.
Cheers
Byron |
