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senojn
Advanced Member
Username: senojn
Post Number: 44
Registered: 08-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 05, 2010 - 02:12 am: | 
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On behalf of the 'Aussie' participants in this wonderful forum over many years I would like to thank the principals for the site's establishment and the oportunity to participate.
Even though our motors have different names we share the same love of OME .
Being mainly coastal dwellers we have more incidence of the dreaded salt water corrosion paticularly as we don't have your lovely inland lakes and rivers although you obviously have that problem on the east/west coast of U.S./Canada.
Some of us don't realize it is an American site so please excuse our sometimes colloquial langauge and where we fit in geographically .
On that note we have a variety of makers but our posts usually come in under Blaxland .
This can be confusing therefore is it possible to have a new heading under engine manufacturers
'Australian' to encompass them all?
Kind regards
Neil Jones |
hookedup
Member
Username: hookedup
Post Number: 8
Registered: 02-2010
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 05, 2010 - 02:55 am: |
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Well said , SENOJIN.
I love this site.
But would really like to see an AUSSIE link for the reasons you have stated.
As long as it is not too much for the people who run the site.
Paul. |
senojn
Advanced Member
Username: senojn
Post Number: 47
Registered: 08-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, May 09, 2010 - 12:58 am: |
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I have a fairly rare W.E.Hardman four stroke twin cylinder motor made by them in Phillip St Kogarah. Everything appears to be in working order with the great exception of the inlet/exhaust manifold .The photo shows a faux one made up for static display.
I would dearly like to get this engine going.
Does any one know of where one is obtainable or can be made up to do the job .
Believe they have Holden pistons .Todd or Boyd might know of them.
Many thanks ,
Neil Jones  |
todd_vidgen
Senior Member
Username: todd_vidgen
Post Number: 173
Registered: 03-2008
| | Posted on Sunday, May 09, 2010 - 05:47 pm: |
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I'm thinking that a simplex 10/12 manifold would
not be too dissimilar and could be fitted without
having to totally reinvent the wheel.Ring Hardman
and Hall,(now known as Gearco)They still make the
bits.Re the pistons, try JP Pistons in SA as they
supply the pistons for the simplex's as well as
making pistons for vintage and veteran,classic,
historic racing,specials etc etc. www.jp.com.au
or 08 82617222.
The whole motor is nearly a perfect reverse of
a Simplex. Suggests a bit of family tree here |
laurie_d
Advanced Member
Username: laurie_d
Post Number: 39
Registered: 10-2009
| | Posted on Sunday, May 09, 2010 - 06:50 pm: |
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Neil, I have a Simplex twin minifold / heat exchanger (early model) that I'll bring to show you for a test fit. Unfortunately it is in the same condition as your Hardman one (more or less) but may be repairable or at least let you know if it's worth pursuing the idea of fitting a Simplex one.
I'm not sure if the current model Simplex is the same size but I'd be surprised if they are an exact fit for the Hardman as (from what I understand) there was a major fallout between Hardman & Hall over patents and though both were designed by Hardman they are set up differently.
Simplex now trade as 'Simplex Marine Engines' at 3 Stanton Rd Seven Hills. ph (02) 96246704. They provide parts qand 'manuals' (at least there is a parts list and some guidelines for carby and gearbox but little things like 'tappet' setting don't get a mention) for the current and earlier motors.
Jeff Hall will still take questions but is not as 'engaging' as many of the old timers.
As I understand it (having restored an early 10/12 recently and looked seriously down the bore of a 5/7 a couple of years ago) the 3 3/4' bore pistons (with rings about 1/4 " wide) from the early 5/7 and 10/12 Simplexs were from A model Fords and since the mid 60s the 3 7/8" bore pistons were from the 179 Holden motors.
Laurie |
johnoxley
New member
Username: johnoxley
Post Number: 1
Registered: 04-2010
| | Posted on Sunday, May 09, 2010 - 09:22 pm: |
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Hi - usual problem with salt water cooled manifolds. What are you like with patterns? Sydney Heritage Fleet has some volunteers who can make patterns for these, but a donation would be sought. We also have a few good foundries and a machine shop. We have recently done a head and a cylinder for a Frisco and an exhaust manifold for a J2 Kelvin. Patternmakers prefer to work with a broken up object rather than guess what is inside...Doubt plans are available. |
senojn
Advanced Member
Username: senojn
Post Number: 48
Registered: 08-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, May 09, 2010 - 09:39 pm: |
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Hello and thank's Todd ,yes there is a family connection as Laurie points out.I shall contact Simplex/Gearco soon.Avoiding the politics .
I contacted Simplex some years ago (when Roger Prettyman was there )and someone else told me they never did make a Twin (?) Hoping the pistons on this one are OK.
Laurie also told me that both cylinders fire simultaneously .Maybe I misundestood .
Laurie ,that is very kind of you .
Look forward to your visit .
Talking of politics I have previously sought information on these early manufacturers and the characters involved.
Namely -Chapman-Blaxland -Simplex- -Vinco and people such as the late Aub Rose and John Forrest.
There as been little ongoing discussion.
Does anybody want to help with a file on any of the above ? Thank you .
Neil |
senojn
Advanced Member
Username: senojn
Post Number: 49
Registered: 08-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, May 09, 2010 - 09:48 pm: |
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The overall dimensions of the Hardman manifold are 24 cm x 9 cm x 11 cm
(9 1/2 in 3 1/2 in 4 1/2 in )
Internals and stud holes are another matter !
Cheers |
senojn
Advanced Member
Username: senojn
Post Number: 50
Registered: 08-2006
| | Posted on Monday, May 10, 2010 - 12:21 am: |
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G'day johnoxley
Thank you for your information .I used to be a paid up member of the Australian Maritime Museum and have viewed a number of engine exhibits and at one time spoke to some of the Heritage volunteers about a motor (I think an Invincible? )
I just love the old marine engines but have no mechanical or patternmaking experience . I mostly just do them up (no pistons )for static display but this one looks like it may come to life again. Question of can do/what price !
The part in question had expoded so badly inside that it has been totally reshaped with an angle grinder and filled to its original shape so there is no problem 'destroying it '
Gather you are with the Heritage Fleet so you might send me more information.Directly if you like.
Many Thanks
Neil |
eric_schulz
Senior Member
Username: eric_schulz
Post Number: 64
Registered: 01-2007
| | Posted on Monday, May 10, 2010 - 12:46 am: |
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As far as Hardman history goes, I know he applied for the Hardman trademark in June 1958. Power Boat & Yachting, March 1959 ran a story on the "New 6-8hp marine engine", so production began somewhere between those dates.
Comparing Simplex and Hardman twins, I dont think the manifolds would interchange. The Simplex is a larger bore engine and the stud pattern is different.
Victa twin cylinder mower engines fired both cylinders at once, but the Simplex wouldn't. Don't know what the crank looks like, so dont know how they run. Both pistons going up and down together gives even firing, one piston up while the other is down sounds like a Harley.
Regarding patents, WE Hardmann patented a carburettor and water pump in 1939.
Has anyone heard of any other size Hardmann engines, other than the 8hp?
Eric |
laurie_d
Advanced Member
Username: laurie_d
Post Number: 40
Registered: 10-2009
| | Posted on Monday, May 10, 2010 - 01:31 am: |
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Folks, Just to clarify what my understanding of the firing order is for the Hardman and Simplex twins: Hardman, pistons are mounted to the crank so both are at TDC at the same time and they fire directly opposed so no 2 fires when no 1 is at the top of the exhauste stroke. They give something of a steady thump thump thump sound.
Simplex twins have No 2 down when no 1 piston is up. As I learnt from this very erstwhile site there are 4 sparks for each cyle but only 1 each for each cylinder actually does any work. The exhaust sound is very differnet from the Hardman (I cannot describe bird calls but I'd say it's more like K.thoomp.... K.thoomp)as shown in: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qLYCdt3fxjk . |
todd_vidgen
Senior Member
Username: todd_vidgen
Post Number: 174
Registered: 03-2008
| | Posted on Monday, May 10, 2010 - 03:00 am: |
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I would imagine that two cylinders firing together
in a 4 stroke of that size would involve pretty
massive crank weights to stop it from turning into
a big compacting machine,let alone the huge amount
of crankcase volume being changed every revolution
trying to blow the oil out of every joint and orifice.Then there is the loss of power and smoothness as it would have one big surge of power
when it fires then waits 2 revolutions to do it
again,I doubt there is a wooden boat strong enough
to take that sort of punishment |
laurie_d
Advanced Member
Username: laurie_d
Post Number: 41
Registered: 10-2009
| | Posted on Monday, May 10, 2010 - 03:41 am: |
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Todd et al, I agree the loads of both firing togther would be something. As per my last message and a look at the magneto/ spark plug lead set up would assist I think they fire directly opposite but even that gives the exhaust (especially at low revs) a unique 'thump'. |
senojn
Senior Member
Username: senojn
Post Number: 51
Registered: 08-2006
| | Posted on Monday, May 10, 2010 - 03:52 am: |
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You would be correct Todd ,
I should not have doubled guessed Laurie's remark to me .I think he has explained it very adequately .
Sorry Laurie to put you on the spot.
Do love your bird calls .Our North American friends will now know a little more of our wildlife?
Even though I have a few running motors and boats I want to keep the image/style/character of engines in way similar to the way we want,in a practical sense, to keep wooden boats alive .
Neil |
mangrove
Member
Username: mangrove
Post Number: 5
Registered: 12-2008
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 11, 2010 - 03:39 am: |
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Hi Neil, I am pretty sure there is a Hardman twin at the outboard museum in Lochsport Victoria.
I think the guy's name is Paul. He has a few putt putts and bits and pieces.
Cheers Tim. |
matt
Senior Member
Username: matt
Post Number: 113
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 11, 2010 - 07:47 am: |
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Most early parallel twin motorcycles have a 360 degree crank, with both firing at the same time.
You could use a single carby and it also simplified the ignition.
Matt and Ron and wikipedia |
todd_vidgen
Senior Member
Username: todd_vidgen
Post Number: 176
Registered: 03-2008
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 11, 2010 - 05:41 pm: |
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2 or 4 stroke? |
matt
Senior Member
Username: matt
Post Number: 114
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 11, 2010 - 11:01 pm: |
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Fours.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straight-two_engine
Matt |
senojn
Senior Member
Username: senojn
Post Number: 52
Registered: 08-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 12, 2010 - 10:39 pm: |
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Many thanks to everybody for the interest and information .Some leads did'nt work out but will continue enquiries .The O/B Museum no longer has a Hardman. Help from Todd and Laurie resulted in the photo below .Will also check Heritage Fleet.
The plate in the pic was alongside the Hardman on show, so goes in for interest.
We all new that our biggest State is abt.111,405 km2 bigger than Alaska and Texas combined did'nt we ?
Neil |
laurie_d
Advanced Member
Username: laurie_d
Post Number: 42
Registered: 10-2009
| | Posted on Sunday, May 16, 2010 - 07:22 pm: |
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Re Hardman timing,
Folks, Just as a matter of interest Neil and I have checked the firing order of the Hardan twin and found it be the same as the Simplex twin. The magneto (rotor) rotates at the same rate as the crankshaft. Spark for no 1 and No 2 plugs is delivered 180 degress apart at the rotor. This means that the pistons must be opposed (not both at TDC at the same time like I had been led to believe years ago by my rellies). One spark for each cylinder is 'wasted' in each 4 stroke cycle. The only question I have now is why the Hardman has such a distinct exhaust compared with either the Clae or Simplex twins? Maybe I should stick to bird calls? Regards. |
todd_vidgen
Senior Member
Username: todd_vidgen
Post Number: 177
Registered: 03-2008
| | Posted on Monday, May 17, 2010 - 02:25 am: |
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Thought as much regarding pistons
Re spark probably wrong magneto/cam in maggy,Ihave 2 twins to look at. 1 spark /cyl/4 strokes .nothing
wrong there.
I think Neil is on the right track re a data base
for OZ motors.A lot of engines are out there running
BUT not to spec.Due to our typical OZ/NZ mentality
of "we'll get it going,and it'll do the job"
What "uncle john" and his mates said was gospel and fact,just wasn't so .Therefore we see quite alot of erroneous statements made.(In the best of
intent) IT would be good to get a accurate database established.(I also have been guilty of this)
Cheers Todd |
byron
New member
Username: byron
Post Number: 3
Registered: 08-2009
| | Posted on Thursday, June 03, 2010 - 08:48 am: |
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Hi All,
I live in Mebourne Australia and also have a simplex engine in my 21ft boat I am restoring.I have recently tried to start the engine after installing it 3 years ago (had to get a petrol tank made up) only to find the manifold had a crack in it. I tried to get it brazed but this just created a bigger hole where it had rusted. Any ideas if anyone over here in oz would have second hand parts ... i'm assuming it is irrepearable??? I have updated a couple of links to photos - sorry couldn't quite work out how to upload the pictures.
Cheers
Byron
http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/0ZqCyzrWTA9-Yxs0x8wz4Q?feat=directlink
http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/sq8w97tiRfjfYJqysOQGGw?feat=directlink |
todd_vidgen
Senior Member
Username: todd_vidgen
Post Number: 180
Registered: 03-2008
| | Posted on Thursday, June 03, 2010 - 05:45 pm: |
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Most second hand manifolds are pretty well had it
You can buy them brand new from "The Simplex Motor Co/Hardman&Hall/Gearco" 3Stanton rd,Seven Hills,NSW
Ph(02)96246704.
Todd |
richardday
Senior Member
Username: richardday
Post Number: 868
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, June 03, 2010 - 09:44 pm: |
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From my perspective the participation of our AU and other country friends has been a wonderful opportunity over the past many years to locate long lost engines, documents and technical fixes of all kind. My interest since the 1960s has been Palmer Bros, Cos Cob, CT. Some of the best Palmer early documents have been found by Allan Roney of Logan City, Queensland. Probably the best surviving Palmer Model M-1 ca 1907 was restored by Steve Craig of Edmonton. Great leads have come from places like Norway, Finland, UK, Holland, Canada The list goes on. Andrew has created an incredible resource for anyone anywhere interested in antique marine engines. One only has to look at the resurection work done by George Coats to understand the solution to getting salt out of cast iron is cooking it at high temp. So myself I alway look at AU notes as you folks come up with very interesting finds. It is also nice to know there are others interested in this chase!!! Of course it does require a certain amount of translation to figure out some of your jargon but that is part of the fun!!!. In conclusion the Internet has made possible more progress in this field than was ever acheived in prior years. The rapid transfer of high quality photos and documents has dramatically opened long "lost" paths to reconstruction of historical facts regarding the small boat engine development. |
laurie_d
Advanced Member
Username: laurie_d
Post Number: 45
Registered: 10-2009
| | Posted on Friday, June 04, 2010 - 12:28 am: |
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Byron, As usual I agree with Todd's advice. However, if ordering a new manifold from Simplex they may need to know the model of the engine (i.e. 3 3/4" or 3 7/8" bore) If it has the cone type gearbox it is likley to be the 3 3/4" and if it is a 'thrustmatic' it will be 3 7/8". Simplex will supply the gasket too (but they do not take credit card). I'd also suggest using 316 stainles studs fitted with 'Neverseize' on all threads. Regards. Laurie |
senojn
Senior Member
Username: senojn
Post Number: 54
Registered: 08-2006
| | Posted on Friday, June 04, 2010 - 02:48 am: |
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Hi Byron ,
You could try Leon Pompei at Mordialloc .
He claims to be the Victorian distributor for Simplex and a bit closer to home.
[email protected] or 0419571788.
He has Simplex parts listed on Ebay and is probably related to the famous Pompei boatbuiders .
It would be interesting if he has new parts to compare prices with Gearco the manufacturers in Sydney.
Cheers ,Neil . |
byron
Member
Username: byron
Post Number: 4
Registered: 08-2009
| | Posted on Friday, June 04, 2010 - 05:02 am: |
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Thanks guys - that's good advice - I must admit that I am at home with timber (hence the 10 year boat restoration ... not that quick though) but am a real amateur when it comes to engines. I just hate to think what a new manifold will cost. Yes I have also found Leon on the internet and have asked him for a price - I am pretty sure he is the son of Jack Pompei who I knew well and was a great boatbuilder in the local area. Once I get a price, I'll check with GEARCO and then hope that I can get the engine started. I'll let you know how I go. I can only concur with Richard to say how wonderful the internet is for connecting people of similar passions all round the world - we are all very fortunate! |
aussienic
New member
Username: aussienic
Post Number: 1
Registered: 07-2015
| | Posted on Thursday, July 16, 2015 - 02:05 am: |
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For senojn Re your question about the W E Hardman marine engine. As I think, stated elsewhere here, the Hardman name is the same as the Harman in Hardman & Hall (Simplex). I had and used a W E Hardman marine engine on the west coast of Tasmania. 1976, when I bought a boat and the Hardman motor I was told by the "old salts" both the crank (cutdown) and pistons were Holden grey motor components. Sold the boat and motor 1983, the epicyclic gearbox was taken off and used elsewhere but I don't know where the motor went. I still have somewhere a brand new head gasket and the two rubber rollers from the water pump for the W E Hardman motor. I can make enquiries if you wish
Aussienic Tasmania |
senojn
Senior Member
Username: senojn
Post Number: 133
Registered: 08-2006
| | Posted on Friday, July 17, 2015 - 11:32 am: |
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Thanks for your information Nick. Sold my motor earlier this year to a Guy , Tim , in Melbourne . I'm in London at the moment . Will contact him on return or he may see this post .
Neil . |
mangrove
Member
Username: mangrove
Post Number: 16
Registered: 12-2008
| | Posted on Thursday, July 23, 2015 - 05:08 am: |
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Hi Nick,
Tim here, I would be keen on the head gasket and rollers if you can find them.
Cheers Tim. |
