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doug11k
Advanced Member
Username: doug11k
Post Number: 33
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Monday, March 05, 2007 - 02:39 pm: | 
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My latest acquisition as received. It was originally found in remains of a wooden boat on a NH lake cottage property when purchased many years ago. The cottage buyer brought it home & tossed it into his crawl space with the shaft & propeller 30 to 40 years ago. He thought it was a pump. He sold the shaft & prop 5 years ago at his wife’s yard sale but left the engine unmolested. I got the engine from his neighbor, a farm engine collector with little interest in marine engines.
Engine was mildly stuck and someone had converted it to spark plug ignition but always used in fresh water. It took maybe 4 to 5 tons to free piston. Top ring was step cut, 2nd & 3rd angle cut and all varying in width from .425 to .4375 in width. Tip of angle on 2nd ring found broken. Dave Reed is making a new set of step cut.
Luckily main bearings & water pump body are in good shape as neither can be removed without removing flywheel. I’ve made a new wrist pin, pump plunger & ignitor trip rod. I found an ignitor plug(stationary contact) and will convert back to make & break ignition.
It has the original Monarch mixer; original priming cup; most of the original petcocks, an oiler with no name, just “1C”and patent date of Aug. 25, 1908; two steel grease cups that don’t match, one a Thiel with 1905 patent date; brass transfer port cover with Cos Cob address & patent date of Aug. 20, 1901; flywheel with holes rather than spokes.
The plan is to have it running for Calvert.
Thanks to Dick Day, Ernie Darrow, Richard Durgee, Doug Teel, & Dave Townsend for information and/or parts.
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richarddurgee
Senior Member
Username: richarddurgee
Post Number: 1441
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Monday, March 05, 2007 - 05:06 pm: |
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Doug
Again : This is a great find, I love these old engines that used what looks like barrel hoops for rings !
Mentioning Dave Reed from Otto Engine in the above post reminded me that he has an Old Palmer "B" thats been in the family for many years !
Dave Reeds 1901 Palmer "B" Calvert 2006
Tag says Aug 20, 1901
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richarddurgee
Senior Member
Username: richarddurgee
Post Number: 1442
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Monday, March 05, 2007 - 09:47 pm: |
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A note to say it was brought to my attention that Daves Palmer "B" in the above post has a "patent date" of Aug 20,1901 on the tag so engine may be 1901 but actual mfg date may be few years earlier or later ! |
doug11k
Advanced Member
Username: doug11k
Post Number: 34
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 06, 2007 - 11:39 am: |
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Richard,
My tag is same as Dave's with patent date & no serial number but I don't see how manufacture date could be earlier than Aug. 20, 1901?
My engine has water pump with single pinch bolt mounting & grease holes in mains vertical instead of 45 degress & holes in flywheels instead of spokes which I think may be a little earlier than Dave's engine. Also no raised letter "B" on aft side of crankcase which I've seen on a 1908 engine. Not sure if Dave's engine has the "B". |
richardday
Senior Member
Username: richardday
Post Number: 470
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 07, 2007 - 12:06 pm: |
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My problem with the August 20, 1901 date is that is the date of the inertial governor weight Patent issued to Ray Palmer. He extended the left side of the igniter Latch about 4" and arranged a weight one could slide along this extension. The purpose was to keep the engine from racing when the prop came out of the water in a heavy swell condition. I have never seen any engine or igniter part that had one of these extentions. If you have the Palmer handbook look on page 59 the latch is Part no. 3. I believe it is possible that if the transfer port cover is not original one cannot be sure the engine is post 1901. The Transfer port cover is found in bronze and cast iron. It is also found with and without the Aug 20 1901 date. I have not found any way to date Palmer Bros. engines prior to ser. no. 050809 That is the serial number on the C installed in Merry Go Round. Bill Nanfield went back to the family records of the original owners of Merry Go Round and they found the original bill of sale and the engine serial number is clearly 050809. This means the engine was made according to company records in 1909. I was confused for some years that the original number I was given was 050806. The problem developed because the tag was clearly 6 but over stamped 9. Apparently the workman recognized his error and restamped the last number 9. I should add I have no numbers with any meaning regarding year of manufacture prior to this date accept one which is 1899 stamped on the end of the crankshat of Ernie's model B. I have found from the begining with Bill Fiege back in the 1980s to this date numbers that may in fact be serial numbers but I have found no known way yet identified to confirm what they mean. Numbers such as B 436-02, B 876-08, C 221-03, C 249-08 C-798, DS-323.have turned up. I believe some early flywheels were not spoked. I suspect the spoke flywheel had a great appeal to the working watermen who could "stomp" on the spokes to start but as anyone with a well tuned boot knows just pushing the flywheel run in the opposite direction you want an ecentric drive engine to run will start it and it will run in the wanted direction.
In the case of Dougs B. I suggest that as most Bs turn up with spoked flywheels and the B went out of production about 1912 his is pretty early in the production. Beyond that assumption I am not prepared to argue a date. Earliest B with a ser. no. is 267310 1910 and earliest BS is 269410 latest BS 526712. S added to the model means stationary version.
Dave Reed's B has the Aug 02 1901 with ?ED above 1901. Don't know what it means. Wonder if we will ever know??? |
ernie
Senior Member
Username: ernie
Post Number: 602
Registered: 01-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 07, 2007 - 09:57 pm: |
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Dick,
I think the ED is part of the word Patented.
I tried enhancing the pic a bit.
Also Cos Cob puts it after the move from Mianus which was 1902??
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doug11k
Advanced Member
Username: doug11k
Post Number: 36
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, March 08, 2007 - 04:44 pm: |
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Here is a photo of my transfer port cover |
ernie
Senior Member
Username: ernie
Post Number: 603
Registered: 01-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, March 08, 2007 - 08:57 pm: |
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Thanks Doug |
richarddurgee
Senior Member
Username: richarddurgee
Post Number: 1448
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Friday, March 09, 2007 - 04:46 pm: |
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Bill Nanfield's Palmer B photos.
1. W/pump mount
2. 1903 Improvements
3.Piston Ring
4.Piston top
5.Top Igniter boss
6.Side plate
7.Flywheel
8. 2 ring piston / No oil scoop rod cap.
9.B & C igniter comparison
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thomas
Senior Member
Username: thomas
Post Number: 260
Registered: 07-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, March 10, 2007 - 06:27 pm: |
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Great project. Hope you can send in updates and
progress pictures as it is rebuilt.
Tom |
thomas
Senior Member
Username: thomas
Post Number: 261
Registered: 07-2002
| | Posted on Sunday, March 11, 2007 - 03:14 pm: |
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Scans from my 1901 Palmer catalog. "1901 Pan Am Exposition" marked on bottom. |
thomas
Senior Member
Username: thomas
Post Number: 262
Registered: 07-2002
| | Posted on Sunday, March 11, 2007 - 03:15 pm: |
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thomas
Senior Member
Username: thomas
Post Number: 263
Registered: 07-2002
| | Posted on Sunday, March 11, 2007 - 03:17 pm: |
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john_archibald
New member
Username: john_archibald
Post Number: 3
Registered: 08-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, March 11, 2007 - 03:45 pm: |
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These are great pictures. Keep up the terrific postings of such things. Makes the whole thing more accessible.
Archibald
Northfield, Minnesota |
richarddurgee
Senior Member
Username: richarddurgee
Post Number: 1450
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, March 11, 2007 - 04:24 pm: |
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Excellent post Tom!
My oldest Palmer catalogs are 1902 and the engine tag says Mianus also "BUT" is that TWO Palmer B models I see listed a B and a B2 ?? its not in any of my catalogs ??---
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richarddurgee
Senior Member
Username: richarddurgee
Post Number: 1451
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, March 11, 2007 - 05:16 pm: |
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Bill Nanfield's Palmer B2 photo
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richardday
Senior Member
Username: richardday
Post Number: 475
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, March 11, 2007 - 05:41 pm: |
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Ernie, How dumb I am of course that is part of the patent date, I think only the boat shop moved to Cos Cob in 1901 The new machine shop opened I think in 1907. At that time the indications are they moved all operations to Cos Cob. |
ernie
Senior Member
Username: ernie
Post Number: 610
Registered: 01-2002
| | Posted on Sunday, March 11, 2007 - 07:00 pm: |
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I don't think Dumb is the word. I used one of my picture programs to make it clearer before I commented |
richarddurgee
Senior Member
Username: richarddurgee
Post Number: 1452
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, March 11, 2007 - 09:13 pm: |
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Bill Nanfield's photo
Mianus Electric Company
Palmer
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