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Ben Sidaway
Visitor
| | Posted on Thursday, February 10, 2005 - 11:03 am: | 
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A few questions:
1. I am in the process of trying to rebuild a Palmer M-60. The exhaust manifold and head were very rusted but I have ground and wire brushed the flakes of rust off. Before painting, I was thinking of pickling both in a muriatic acid solution. The manifold was plugged with scale when I got the two two "inspection" plates off on the bottom side. I have got out as much sludge as I can but I think the acid would clean things up better. Is this a good idea, could I damage something? If I do it what strength solution should I use and for how long?
2. What thickness and type of gasket should I use between the carburetor and the manifold, and between the "inspection" plates on the bottom of the manifold?
3. I was wondering if anyone could tell me the age of my engine. Cast on the manifold is 7002 and stamped on the head is 351779R1
Thanks for any help. |
richardday
Senior Member
Username: richardday
Post Number: 361
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Friday, February 11, 2005 - 08:02 am: |
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Ben, In my opinion any use of acid to clean out the manifold or the head is bound to result in total disaster. Just go to a IHC tractor dealer and get a junk tractor head for the Cub Lo-Boy C-60 engine. Don't talk Palmer or they will think you are nuts and don't confuse with the Cub Cadet tractor engine. The exhaust manifold is the part that can be a real problem. There are apparently no repeat no New Old Stock M-60 AKA P-60 manifolds to be found. I think Ernie Darrow as one useable old one and I may have one useable one. If you cannot get a replacement why waste money rebuilding the engine. I would go to the IHC tractor dealer buy a rebuildable C-60 block and have the block rebuilt but with your crankshaft from your engine. This will give you a new engine with a clean water jacket that isn't all rusted out. You can get a new copper head gasket from
F.H.Gaskins Co., Inc. MARINE & INDUSTRIAL SUPPLIES SINCE 1931. 25th & Church St. 4 Nashua Ct., Unit 3. Norfolk, Va. 757-622-4706 Baltimore, Md. 410-686-1800
www.safetyvalve.com
Don't try to use the tractor head gasket with salt water cooling. It works fine with 50:50 Fresh water/antifreeze cooling.
Save all repeat all the marine related stuff on your engine and when you get the tractor block rebuilt back bolt all the marine engine stuff on it and you are back in business. The marine engine crankcase pan is cast iron so save it don't try to use the tractor pressed steel crankcase. The marine engine crankshaft was ground by IHC for Palmer to mate with the Palmer supplied Paragon reverse gear so don't try to use the tractor crankshaft. The rebuilder will have no problem using your marine crankshaft as it is all standard IHC C-60 so after he regrinds it all the standard oversize IHC bearing inserts etc. fit perfectly. The IHC tractor gaskets for the block to manifold should be used. It takes two gaskets. The Palmer supplied exhaust manifold part 7002 will be the driving factor in all this. If you cannot find a good useable one forget the rebuild in my opinion.
Go to a dealer in packing and gasket material and buy .015 gasket paper to make the reverse gear to engine block gasket. That was not an IHC supplied item. Buy the gasket set for the IHC Cub Lo-Boy, C-60 for the pan gasket, block to manifold gaskets, valve cover gasket etc. You can get this set from Valu-Bilt Tractor parts VALU-BILT.COM 888-828-3276
You probably can get the same gaskets from the IHC dealer. You cannot get the exhaust manifold cover gasket and the one that connects the exhaust pipe to the manifold. You can get this type gasket material from a dealer that handles gasket material but you will have to cut them out unless the dealer also does that sort of work. All he needs is the pattern. It could be made in copper or any suitable high temperature material.
The head gasket maker probably would make if he doen't alrady have that SAE style gasket in stock.
The marine carburetor that bolts to the bottom of the exhaust manifold requires 2 papergaskets one on the top and one on the bottom of the wedge that levels the carburetor when the engine is mounted in the boat. Make sure you get the wedge in the correct direction or you may have trouble with the fuel/float function. The rebuild kit for the caruretor is NAPA 2-1565.
The head number has some IHC meaning not a Palmer marking in my opinion.
Andrew I have repeated this info so many times maybe I better send you a note to publish on the techical page. Contributions by others to that same page might be useful in view of the number of people that seem to want to keep their P-60s running. |
Ben Sidaway
Visitor
| | Posted on Friday, February 11, 2005 - 10:32 am: |
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Richard, thanks for the advice. I have seen similar posts by you before but I'm not planning such a thorough rebuild as you provide info for. After wire brushing the head and manifold, they look in fair condition. Before painting, I was going to pickle them in a dilute muriatic acid solution. I don't think this would create a disaster. I have run a diluted acid through the block to clean it out and it came out all nice and shiny. The water jacket on the manifold was plugged with scale and so I thought the acid would break up and flush out remaining scale I could not reach or flush out with a hose pipe. Removing rust is one of the intended purposes of muriatic acid.
Re: gaskets, I have the old block/manifold gaskets. They look OK but my local IHC dealer can get me new ones. The gaskets at the ends of the manifold also look OK, I may just cut copper sheet to replace them though. The gaskets on the bottom manifold covers though should be some sort of compressible fibre I presume as these cover the water jacket. I am I correct here? I made a similiar one for the thermostat coupling a year or so ago and it has worked fine.
Can you give me some more info on the carb/manifold gasket(s). When I took the carb off, there only seemed to be some bits of shredded rubbery gasket stuck to the carb, that's it. I'm not sure what you mean about the wedge and using gaskets on the top and bottom of it. Can you give me some more info here, it's a Zenith carb of course.
Re: carb rebuild, my IHC dealer says that typcally what happens is that the float needle wears and can get stuck. This is exactly what I have found, it would stick up and not fall with the float and so the engine would be deprived of fuel. He recommends just getting a new float needle and a bowl gasket so this is what I'll probably do.
Finally, I have had tried to attach photos but I just can't get my photos under the 50KB limit. You can see pictures of the engine before I pulled it out at
Thanks again for your valuable advice. |
andrew
Moderator
Username: andrew
Post Number: 1044
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Friday, February 11, 2005 - 12:49 pm: |
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Here are Ben's pictures:
 |
richardday
Senior Member
Username: richardday
Post Number: 362
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Friday, February 11, 2005 - 09:28 pm: |
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Myself I would want a copper gasket with a compressable lining rather than just a piece of sheet copper. There is supposed to be a steel wedge the same size as the SAE style flange that the throat of the carburetor has where it joins the bottom of the intake manifold. It is about 1/4" thick on one end and about 3/16" thick on the other end. This wedge cants the fore/aft level of the carburetor to counter act the angle of the engine when mounted in the boat. The idea is to try to keep the carburetor level when the boat is at rest or underway. It cannot of course totally handle all possible angles when underway but the float can deal with the motion of the boat the closer it is to level. Too often the wedge winds up in the bilges as the mechanic doesn't notice it when he removes the carburetor.
You are on your own if you use acid on that manifold for sure. One of the first things I look for in salt water cooled engine water jacketed parts is evidence that acid has been used to clean out the water jacket. You can wind up with no or perhaps worse paper thin jacket walls and not know it until you are in a tight squeeze. |
Ben Sidaway
Visitor
| | Posted on Monday, February 14, 2005 - 10:18 am: |
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Richard, I'll forgo the acid bath for the manifold on your advice then. Any other ideas on how to clean the scale out of the water jacket? A friend of mine has used an old frayed speed or tach wire cable attached to a drill which flails around in side the block for large marine engines.
No sign of the wedge in the bilge or anywhere else. I guess I'll have to live without one. It would be very difficult to make I would imagine. The engine has run OK for the last few yrs I've owned the boat without a wedge in place.
What material should I use to make gaskets for the covers on the bottom of the manifold? I'm thinking they don't need to be like the high temp gaskets at the ends of the manifold. |
islander252
New member
Username: islander252
Post Number: 1
Registered: 08-2005
| | Posted on Monday, August 15, 2005 - 04:52 pm: |
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I was thinking about primer product for disolving rust(was it called Osso?). And I wonder if this would work in the water jacket (I believe it converts rust to ferric phosphate). Anyone have thoughts on what happens to this material at high temperature exposed to salt water? Also, my head gasket appears to have partially disintegrated into some sort of mushy white mass(not crisp like salt crystals, but soft and smooth like soap or lithium), is this a proper marine gasket? |
eddie
Senior Member
Username: eddie
Post Number: 67
Registered: 04-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 16, 2005 - 04:05 pm: |
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The right way to go with a head gasket is a copper one. Sounds like they might have used a tractor gasket and it was corroded by salt water. There are aftermarket new cylinder heads availiable for your engine. |
richardday
Senior Member
Username: richardday
Post Number: 445
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 17, 2005 - 07:45 am: |
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My suggestion is to look at the address in the second entry on this thread and you will see the source for making a replacement compressable copper gasket for use with salt water. If your current gasket is really not good enough for a pattern buy the tractor gasket and use it for the marine copper gasket pattern. don't forget to ring the water passages in the new gasket. I have never done business with F. H. Gaskins and they may have a pattern already on hand to make the gasket you need. Don't try to use the tractor gasket with salt water.
With regard to the wedge fine it appears our engine must be level enough so it is not required. |
Brent
Visitor
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 09, 2006 - 12:44 pm: |
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Richard, I just purchased a catboat with a Palmer P-60 and another owner suggested cleaning/rebuilding the carburetor as part of the yearly maintenance. You mentioned in an earlier post that the NAPA part # was 2-1565. I checked the NAPA website and they have a part #MPF31306 that cross-references to 21565; a Zenith Carburetor Kit.
Before I order it, I was wondering if you can confirm that this is what you were talking about.
Thanks in advance! |
Eddie Ross
Senior Member
Username: eddie
Post Number: 122
Registered: 04-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 09, 2006 - 05:53 pm: |
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Yearly sounds a little extreme. |
Richard A. Day Jr.
Senior Member
Username: richardday
Post Number: 331
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 09, 2006 - 10:52 pm: |
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Eddie is right. Yearly is not wise or necessary. The NAPA part number I have is 2-1565. It costs about $30.00. If you look in the OME records regarding P-60 you will find that the one item that you will really need is the gasket for the float bowl and it is sold by others at about $6.00 which is a big savings. I just don't have time to dig it out for you. Someone will probably remember the entry. |
Ben Sidaway
Member
Username: ben
Post Number: 17
Registered: 05-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, May 25, 2006 - 10:33 pm: |
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Dick,
I use www.moyermarine.com. Much cheaper than the NAPA kit, much of which is irrelevant. I also cut my own, used the moyer gasket as a template and used sharp scalpel. Works fine. |
