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narrabay2
Senior Member
Username: narrabay2
Post Number: 223
Registered: 10-2019
| | Posted on Monday, November 08, 2021 - 10:05 pm: | 
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Seems there has been consensus that the Model T buzz coil is "sub-optimal" mainly meaning the output (spark) volts is kinda low.
But. I like the old school look. I happen to have some leftover modern coil-on-plug coils from my TBird, and was ruminating about using a "JB buzz coil" relay to drive it and put it right on top of the spark plug. This high spark voltage option would allow a much bigger plug gap and according to Ernies experience with high volt coil on old engine, eliminate misfiring etc
That is still an option, however, I like the "oldness" of the Model T buzz coil (aka Tremblor).
So I started unpacking an old failing one I had. They are filled as most of us here know, with tar which contains the coil and the electromagnet to drive the relay on top. If I remove all that I have no electro magnet. I would still like the original buzz coil relay so I think I may make my own electromagnet if I cant dig it out of the sticky tar.
If not, I can always stuff the box with this little high voltage coil and a headlight relay and it will look old and deliver a high (100,000 volt) spark.
I will try using the Model T integral relay with a Ford coil (see pic) inside first.
Here are the 3 options though:
1) put the coil on the spark plug and drive it with a Bosch headlight relay per JB's plans
2) Put the coil inside a Buzz box along with the Bosch relay
3) Dig out, or Wind an electromagnet to make the buzz box relay actually work, but produce a 100k volt spark
I will start with #3
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miro
Senior Member
Username: miro
Post Number: 1166
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 10, 2021 - 09:48 am: |
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You'll not likely get the high frequency that the automotive relay gets by making your own - that's the secret to the modern version of the buzz coil.
The output voltage at the spark plug connection is a function of di/dt - |
narrabay2
Senior Member
Username: narrabay2
Post Number: 224
Registered: 10-2019
| | Posted on Friday, November 12, 2021 - 12:44 am: |
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Hi Miro, I'm getting 2 things from your post:
1) the model T or modified T relay will buzz slower and not produce as many sparks
2) I dont understand what you are saying about the output voltage (but I found a page that discusses that and there's a lot involved beyond primary volts and coil ratio) I googled di/dt and that stuff is wayyyy over my head! ;)
Here are my thoughts and questions:
most engines run great with a single spark. If my hybrid Model T box makes more than 1 100k volt spark, Im ahead of the game.(?) Ernies experience with a high voltage ignition on the Gray seemed to benefit most from the bigger spark plug gap you can use with much higher voltage (IIRC).
I could use the Bosch relay inside the box Im sure it would fit, but why not try the Model T relay first? (I have no idea if the late model Ford coil would pull too much through either relay and affect the contacts of anything like that?)
Yes I have no idea really about this stuff but I always bring a spare regular Model T coil so what the heck... ;) |
chris_spring
Senior Member
Username: chris_spring
Post Number: 168
Registered: 02-2019
| | Posted on Friday, November 12, 2021 - 07:37 am: |
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Miro has sent me one of his kits which I intend to use both as a troubleshooting tool, and in order to do a side by side comparison.
My guess is that at the end of the day I will be using The Miro 2000 for both the Adams and the St. Lawrence.
I know that the Ford trembler system draws very little power and a 12v ATV battery lasts a long time. A battery tender handles it nicely. I am curious to see how the Miro 2000 works in that regard since neither the Adams nor the St. Lawrence have a charging system.
Narrabay2. You could always cut to the chase and ask Miro to send you a Miro 2000. Who knows? Perhaps by now he has a turbo version, the Miro 2000 turbo.
Cheers!
Cheers! |
narrabay2
Senior Member
Username: narrabay2
Post Number: 225
Registered: 10-2019
| | Posted on Saturday, November 13, 2021 - 12:50 am: |
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OK...
Miro? What is a Miro 2000? sounds interesting! |
ernie
Senior Member
Username: ernie
Post Number: 2665
Registered: 01-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, November 13, 2021 - 08:49 am: |
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It is the higher voltage allowing a larger-longer spark gap. From that point on it is simple so to speak.
To prevent miss-fire you need at least one hydrocarbon molecule to be in the path of the spark to light the fire.
So to prevent miss-fire you need lots of hydrocarbon molecules or in the absence of lots of hydrocarbon molecules a longer spark (distance not time) to assure you light the fire. Time helps some due to turbulence in the combustion chamber but spark distance is much more critical.
Auto mfrs found out all about that back in the 70s and 80s where they had to lean out the mixture and prevent miss-fires at the same time. So one mfr went from a champion RBL15Y with a .30 or so gap to RBL15Y4 .40 gap up to from what I remember finally an RBL15Y8 with a .80 gap. And maybe even bigger. Why the differencre in plugs you say. Just open up the gap. The ground electrode needs to be parallel to the end of the insulated electrode at the point of spark gap. So the spark jumps from a straight clean corner in a straight line. So the ground electrode needs to be longer to keep the geometry correct. |
ernie
Senior Member
Username: ernie
Post Number: 2666
Registered: 01-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, November 13, 2021 - 08:56 am: |
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By the way there is NO relay in the Ford coils.
The trembler/vibrator points are on the end of the core for the ignition coil.
The magnetic field in the core pulls the points open just as if they were part of a relay.
The only parts inside the Ford coil are
A soft iron core made up of many small rods mounted lengthwise centrally from end to end protruding out the end where the points are.
A coil of wire around the core for the primary
A coil of wire around the primary for the secondary
And a condenser
Oh and lots of tar |
miro
Senior Member
Username: miro
Post Number: 1167
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, November 13, 2021 - 12:15 pm: |
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I build the modern version of a Ford Model T coil complete with brass knurled "nuts" on the screws for the connections, and a very nice varnished quarter-sawn oak wooden box. I found that shipping these thing s was becoming expensive because of the weight of the ignition coil.
Since many folks are OK with woodworking, and are Ok to make a few connections electrically, I designed and built a "kit" that has 4 simple connections, one to the plus 12 V, one to the minus 12V (and ground) one to the plus side of the ignition coil and one to the ground side of the ignition coil.
I use the automotive relay , a Mylar 600V capacitor and a 4 ohm, 10 W resistor, all bundled into a small package.
That way folks can make their own box and use their own ignition coil - much easier to ship. I've sent them all over North America.
Depending on the coil you use, the current draw is 500mA or less to make a hot, blue noisy spark. Lets the batteries last longer . I've had some run very well as low as 200 mA.
The key thing to remember is to never operate the coil without a spark gap. I find a spark gap in the 40 thou range is about right for my engines.
I typically will get about 7 - 10 sparks when I try to start the engines. Once running that will decrease to 4-5 - higher engine speed = shorter dwell time.
I also do not recommend the use of fossil based tar or any tar inside the box. I use what I can easily get my hands on - plastic grocery bags are a favourite - just stuff them in, and fasent the lid.
Miro |
narrabay2
Senior Member
Username: narrabay2
Post Number: 226
Registered: 10-2019
| | Posted on Thursday, November 18, 2021 - 08:49 pm: |
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Hi I was with an elect engineer (I think) today, super smart retired guy, and was talking about this. When I said the key is getting a longer length spark (bigger gap) He mentioned another factor, center insulator fouling. He said a bigger air gap requires more voltage to arc across, which increases the tendency to instead arc the center spark insulator instead if it is covered in carbon.
One other thing he mentioned was in the old days, you used to be able to buy a resistor that went between the distributor cap and the plug wire, that caused a bigger voltage to build up before it could spark.
Nothing Earth shaking here just a couple more little interesting tidbits about making a spark and using it.
Got me thinking about fouled plug insulator tho!
In any case when my experiment fails I think I will be trying a Miro 2000.... |
miro
Senior Member
Username: miro
Post Number: 1168
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Friday, November 19, 2021 - 02:32 pm: |
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On the older version of the Model T spark plugs, it IS possible to take them apart ( very carefully) , by unscrewing the upper fitting, and carefully pulling out the centre electrode using a gentle twisting motion.
You can then clean up the porcelin by simply rubbing with a sheet of paper.
NEVER use an abrasive - it will remove the glazed layer which will guarantee that your plug will foul.
I'd stay away from resistors in line with the plug - get your ignition box to put out a good spark - hot, blue and noisy. |
narrabay2
Senior Member
Username: narrabay2
Post Number: 239
Registered: 10-2019
| | Posted on Thursday, April 21, 2022 - 08:26 am: |
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Im bumping this up as this will be an upcoming project this spring, try one or more of these HV ignition options... |
chris_spring
Senior Member
Username: chris_spring
Post Number: 214
Registered: 02-2019
| | Posted on Friday, July 01, 2022 - 08:08 am: |
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Miro.
For the record could we get you to post the circuit diagram for the Miro 2000? Alternatively, a photo of the unit with labels showing what connects where would be helpful.
You have listed the components and described how it works, but a diagram might be helpful for those wishing to build their own.
You included a diagram which I have since mis-placed with the unit you sent me. I installed the unit in the Gidley in place of the trembler coil. I much prefer the Miro 2000.
Cheers! |
narrabay2
Senior Member
Username: narrabay2
Post Number: 243
Registered: 10-2019
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 05, 2022 - 08:30 am: |
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I'd be curious to see that too! |
narrabay2
Senior Member
Username: narrabay2
Post Number: 244
Registered: 10-2019
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 05, 2022 - 08:46 am: |
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I just re-read Ernie's posts above. I recommend them to anyone following this. Among other ignition wisdom, he says u cant just open up the gap due to electrode geometry. Something to remember when applying hotter ignition solutions.
Also, the model T temblor relay is also part of the coil potted in tar. The "relay" section only works as part of the coil. Remove the coil and it's decoration.
Ernie just gave me larger wooden coil box. I could easily fit 2 ford coils and 2 Bosch relays and make an A/B backup situation.
The question is what to do with the spark plug at the higher voltages (if anything).
Ernie told me he uses a high voltage modern ign coil as a diagnostic, and in one case the Gray 3hp did not have it's usual misfire at a certain RPM when hooked to the high voltage ignition setup. Going back to the beginning, "most carburetor problems are electrical" meaning get a hot, reliable spark and good spark plug when chasing smooth operation. |
chris_spring
Senior Member
Username: chris_spring
Post Number: 215
Registered: 02-2019
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 05, 2022 - 10:02 am: |
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My original fit in the Gidley was a trembler coil and 6V. The case had room for me to carry a spare trembler.
From there I went to the trembler and 12v.
And from there I went to the Miro 2000 and 12v.
Parallel to that I re-built the timer. The shaft was worn and the bushing was a fair way out of round. Tightening up those tolerances has certainly made a difference.
Yesterday, just for fun, I tried opening the spark plug gap to .050". Crazy eh? I didn't really give it a fair shake. I remembered Ernie's info about electrode alignment and decided .050" wsas probably a bad idea. I am however happy with a .040" gap. That seems to work well.
Cheers! |
miro
Senior Member
Username: miro
Post Number: 1185
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, July 10, 2022 - 06:57 pm: |
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The diagram is on an older computer so I'll resurect it and extract it this week. Failing that I'll scan the hard copy and post it.
About a month ago I sent a 2 cylinder version to a DisPro pal up near Sudbury - he has a 2 cylinder copper jacket in his boat - his comment "it doesn't make sparks, it makes lightning bolts! "
miro |
chris_spring
Senior Member
Username: chris_spring
Post Number: 217
Registered: 02-2019
| | Posted on Monday, July 11, 2022 - 06:27 am: |
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Thanks Miro. |
narrabay2
Senior Member
Username: narrabay2
Post Number: 246
Registered: 10-2019
| | Posted on Monday, July 11, 2022 - 10:25 am: |
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X2 Thanks Miro  |
narrabay2
Senior Member
Username: narrabay2
Post Number: 247
Registered: 10-2019
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 26, 2022 - 08:15 pm: |
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So I tried to build another relay/coil buzz box alternative with both a Ford coil-on-plug coil, and a standard round universal ign coil. It buzzes but spark is very weak. I have done this before successfully. I dont think either of the two relays have a resistor or diode and I followed the Ernie steps (in an older post) to the letter. I'll run this down. BUT, in the meantime, I found this on ebay and a youtube example video. Kinda expensive at $125 but looks pretty well done. Interesting feature is the altnernate path for the spark in case you dont have the plug wire going somewhere (running it disconnected will damage the secondary windings very quickly). This feature protects against that. Check it out!
https://www.ebay.com/itm/233336943992
https://youtu.be/PPVYh549Fns |
chris_spring
Senior Member
Username: chris_spring
Post Number: 220
Registered: 02-2019
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 27, 2022 - 03:14 pm: |
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To build a Miro 2000 you can get a coil and relay at a junk yard for cheap. The electronic bits are to be had easily for a couple of bucks. After that it is simply a matter of soldering and wiring. Even if you bought a new coil and relay you can build one for half the Ebay price and it will work well.
I just finished building up one I can swap between the Kingfisher and the St. Lawrence.
Cheers! |
chris_spring
Senior Member
Username: chris_spring
Post Number: 222
Registered: 02-2019
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 03, 2022 - 06:18 pm: |
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Since I don't have a hull to mount the St. Lawrence or the Kingfisher, I built up a Miro 2000 that I can quickly swap between the two so I can run them statically.
While I don't anticipate any difficulty with the Miro 2000 in the Gidley, if I need to I can use the spare as a test kit.
The Miro 2000. Greatest thing since sliced bread.
Cheers! |
narrabay2
Senior Member
Username: narrabay2
Post Number: 248
Registered: 10-2019
| | Posted on Monday, August 08, 2022 - 09:38 am: |
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hi chris, can you post some pics of your ignition build? Im busy lately but planning to try again for the buzz ign using the modern ford coil. I bought a Bosch relay from Amazon. That and another relay I have produced a very weak spark. The Bosch has a diode (shown on its diagram) and I THINK I snipped the leads top that but it is either buried or a very well hidden and/or tiny SMC diode. I'll get this working at full power eventually.
I recall Ernie telling me his hi voltage coil setup cleared up a miss in a one lunger that he otherwise could not tune out. That is the appeal! |
chris_spring
Senior Member
Username: chris_spring
Post Number: 223
Registered: 02-2019
| | Posted on Monday, August 08, 2022 - 04:33 pm: |
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Both of the ones I have are now enclosed so getting pics is not really an option. I was hoping Miro would post a block diagramme. Failing that I'll try to find the handwritten one he sent me and I'll post that.
Cheers! |
miro
Senior Member
Username: miro
Post Number: 1191
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, August 13, 2022 - 11:12 am: |
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Guys - I posted the diagram on the IGNITION section of the web site  . . .
miro |
narrabay2
Senior Member
Username: narrabay2
Post Number: 261
Registered: 10-2019
| | Posted on Saturday, February 25, 2023 - 11:49 pm: |
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Guys I just wanted to update this Ignition topic with what was really making the YT balky. At Mystic last year, the YT was getting balky again. Ernie took a ride with me and made carb mixture adjustments lo and hi jets. He maybe adjusted it 2 or 3 times, listening for the results, and it ran very steady since then and I took more people for rides.
Definitely ignition can cause all kinds of issues and I think it can be hard to really tell carb vs ignition, but in this case, someone experienced adjusting the carb actually got the engine running very even and it no longer seemed like it was going to konk out. |
chris_spring
Senior Member
Username: chris_spring
Post Number: 249
Registered: 02-2019
| | Posted on Sunday, February 26, 2023 - 07:31 am: |
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There are some on here that when they offer advice or tips, it is best to listen and heed. Doing that can save you a lot of aggro.
WRT getting the Adams to run properly and consistently there were several issues. It was near impossible for me to get them isolated and herded into a corner.
Are my problems carburetion or ignition? (Notice I don't mentiion that ghastly piston ring lash up I found later)
The rebuild of the timer together with the installation of a Miro 2000 eliminated ignition as a source of the problem. So far it has been trouble free.
As it turns out, the greater part of my problem was the fact that I had not heeded Ernie's carburetor advice. In not doing I became my own worst enemy.
Ernie had written to the affect that barring internal issues, when it comes to setting up a Schebler Model D, there are two keys. One is to make small adjustments. The other is to wait.
Qu'est que c'est "small" and "wait"?
In making an adjustment I was perhaps taking too big a swing at it, or more likely not waiting long enough for that adjustment to take affect. In hindsight, that advice only makes sense.
Once I got a handle on that, things immediately started to look up.
In any event be it carb or ignition, thank you Ernie.
Cheers! |
ernie
Senior Member
Username: ernie
Post Number: 2701
Registered: 01-2002
| | Posted on Sunday, March 12, 2023 - 10:16 am: |
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Chris,
Thanks for the nice words
Ernie |
