| Author |
Message |
    
Andrew Stephen
New member
Username: andy71118
Post Number: 1
Registered: 08-2010
| | Posted on Saturday, August 21, 2010 - 04:28 pm: | 
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Hey guys,
I've been reading a lot of the posts on here and it has gotten me really interested about a Gray Motor Company engine that was my great great grandfather's. There are no markings on the flywheel at all so I'm not sure how to figure out what year it is. The brass tag says: Model: 06S55 HP: 6S.
Any help is greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
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Dennis Hart
Advanced Member
Username: sinbad
Post Number: 41
Registered: 07-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, August 21, 2010 - 07:13 pm: |
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Well Andy, you have found yourself a sweet little motor. I looks like it has just come out of the box! |
Andrew Stephen
New member
Username: andy71118
Post Number: 2
Registered: 08-2010
| | Posted on Saturday, August 21, 2010 - 07:41 pm: |
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Yea my dad and I just found it wrapped up in plastic in my grandfathers workshop. He used to have his own business rebuilding marine engines so I'm sure he rebuilt this one too, just don't know when. I would just like to find out some more about it. I'm assuming it is an "S" model from the brass tag, but as far as the year I have no idea. |
RichardDurgee
Senior Member
Username: richarddurgee
Post Number: 2445
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, August 21, 2010 - 08:43 pm: |
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*
The tag indicates its a 1910 Model S Gray 6 Hp.
This engine came on the market in 1908 and disappeared by end of 1913. The S had a mechanical oiler mounted on the rear above the
output shaft, the Mechanical oiler has been removed from your eng and replaced by a drip oiler but the semi round grooved belt drive output flange is still there.
Go to search option at the top of this page and type in Gray- should take many hours to read through all of that but most any info on these engs was dicussed on this site over the yrs !
This is a file photo of what your eng looked like when new.
* |
Andrew Stephen
New member
Username: andy71118
Post Number: 3
Registered: 08-2010
| | Posted on Saturday, August 21, 2010 - 09:03 pm: |
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Rich,
I'm reading through the information on the search "Gray" now, it's going to take a while to get through it all. That's really cool that this thing is 100 years old this year. Thanks for the info. about the oiler. Which was better, the belt driven oiler, or the drip oiler? Did one style preceed the other? Thanks for the help. |
Andrew Stephen
Member
Username: andy71118
Post Number: 4
Registered: 08-2010
| | Posted on Saturday, August 21, 2010 - 09:57 pm: |
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Hmmmm, from what I'm reading the drip oiler was used on the "R" model while the belt driven oiler was used on the "S". |
Richard A. Day Jr.
Senior Member
Username: richardday
Post Number: 897
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, August 22, 2010 - 08:38 am: |
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I recently acquired a 10 HSP Gray complete with the oil pump and all original trim. It is a little dusty but otherwise seems perfect. Don't often find these old timers in such good condition. I wonder how much it weighs as it is heavy? Don't have a Gray catalog covering this model. |
RichardDurgee
Senior Member
Username: richarddurgee
Post Number: 2446
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, August 22, 2010 - 10:04 am: |
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Dick, my oldest Gray catalog is 1913 and although the "S" engs were mfgd in that yr they were not included in the catalog, the 10 Hp singles were also not listed in 1913 ! I guess Gray was shocked with the technology change of mixing oil and gasoline because the "R" model engines for yrs had the rear crank flanges with the mechanical oiler mount casting. The 1914 catalog shows an "R" eng with the plunger water pump mounted to oiler mount so they did use it in this case. "Mississippi Sand Sucker" You have to love the name- leaves little to the imagination !
1914 Gray model "R"
\* |
Richard A. Day Jr.
Senior Member
Username: richardday
Post Number: 898
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, August 22, 2010 - 05:17 pm: |
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Thanks Richard, You are a priceless fountain of knowledge on these old timers. If you happen to come across the weight of the 10 HSP I would like very much to hear it. this engine is heavy!!! |
William Schaller
Senior Member
Username: billschaller
Post Number: 338
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Monday, August 23, 2010 - 10:17 am: |
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Does anyone know who made the original coil, and can anyone post a good closeup photo of the correct coil? |
RichardDurgee
Senior Member
Username: richarddurgee
Post Number: 2447
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Monday, August 23, 2010 - 10:31 am: |
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*
1913
** |
Robert
Senior Member
Username: robert
Post Number: 379
Registered: 07-2003
| | Posted on Friday, August 27, 2010 - 06:42 pm: |
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I'd like to find one of those coils myself for my Model T Gray... |
Andrew Stephen
Member
Username: andy71118
Post Number: 5
Registered: 08-2010
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 02, 2011 - 02:14 pm: |
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I'm bringing this thread back to life with another question. The engine that I posted at the top has been sitting from anywhere between 10 and 15 years. What is the best way to go about starting it? What should I look at before I even try? What is the process for the timing, retard, start, advance? How much retard/advance do I go? Where should the throttle be when I try to start it? I don't just want to start heaving on the flywheel and end up screwing something up. Is there a thread that gives some step by step starting procedures for and engine like this?
Thanks for the help,
Andrew |
miro forest
Senior Member
Username: miro
Post Number: 561
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Friday, March 04, 2011 - 11:03 pm: |
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There's usually a flat boss on the lower part of the cylinder with a serial number on these engines. You might have to scrape off the paint, but it is there.
I'm sure Richard D would like to have that number.
As for starting the thing - all the usual considerations apply - make sure you've oiled everything - a good quality motor oil is fine.
Next make sure you've got grease in the grease cups for the main bearings and give then a good turn to make sure you've got grease in the mains.
This not only assures lubrication but also seals the crankcase so the engine will actually draw mixture in and get it up into the cylinder.
You shod really be using a buzz coil for this engine. You can make one quite easily using the automotive coil and a AR272 automotive relay and a capacitor. I can send you the diagram if you'd like. It is JB's idea not mine.
The Schebler carb should be OK for a test run - its float is probably OK so you don't need to tinker with it.
The needle vale is set about one turn out ( a bit rich but that's OK)
The best way to get this engine to fire is to start it using the "reverse bounce" aproach.
You'll set the ignition timing at 30 deg retarded
and then after priming the engine , you turn the flywheel backwards so the piston compresses the mixture and the engine fires. Using this approach means you don't have to swing the flywheel up over TDC and compression to get it to fire.
A 5 gal bucket with plain water will be OK to cool the engine - in your case the gear pump will work in either direction of engine rotation but in a boat the gear pump only works on one direction of rotation since the exhaust water is dumped overboard.
And finally you'll need to mount the engine on something more substantial - otherwise it will hop over over the place once it starts.
Believe me, you don't want to have that happen.
If you're still not confident, get one of us to come over and give you a hand - what part of the country are you in? |
Andrew Stephen
Member
Username: andy71118
Post Number: 6
Registered: 08-2010
| | Posted on Friday, March 04, 2011 - 11:42 pm: |
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miro,
There is a boss on the lower part of the cylinder but I don't remember seeing any numbers, probably filled with paint like you said. As for the buzz coil, I would really appreciate it if you could send me the diagram. You say to set the timing to 30 deg. retarded. My only issue with that is how do I know where 30 deg. is? I don't see any timing marks on the distributor or on the lever with the spring loaded ball. Which direction is advance/retard relative to the flywheel? Also, you say to start it, you turn the flywheel backwards. Which way is backwards, clockwise or counter clockwise? I don't want to sound like an idiot but I literally stumbled upon this engine and I don't know a lot about it. I live in CT but travel to ME every summer. If anyone on here is close enough I can supply some beer and pizza if you want to come over and help me get it running. |
miro forest
Senior Member
Username: miro
Post Number: 562
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, March 05, 2011 - 06:44 pm: |
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OK - all good questions / issues.
The first thing is to find top dead centre ( TDC)
Take out the spark plug and rotate the flywheel while you have inserted a long thing thing eg chopstick into the cylinder and as you rotate the flywheel you'll eventually see the stick rise the then fall. You'll be able sort of get TDC.
Now rotate the flywheel about 30deg one way and mark the stick and the position of the flywheel, then rotate it the other way though TDC until you get to the mark on your stick and also mark the position of the flywheel.
Now you can get a fairly accurate TDC position of the flywheel be taking half the distance between the 2 marks on the flywheel.
Set the flywheel at TDC and now open the timer.
You'll see a contact on te shaft and a kind of top hat thing that connects to the wire outside.
Move the timer until you have a pretty good alignment of the centre of the top hat and the contact on the shaft.
Now you've calibrated the timer and the position of the piston.
Once you get your buzz coil going, you'll find that the timer contact isn't all that precise
ie the coild will buzz as you go though about 5-10 degrees of rotation on the flywheel.
Because these are slow turning engines ( top speed 800 RPM) this is not a critical thing.
SO when you eventually go to try starting the engine, it really doesn't matter which way it turns.
Yes there is a right and wrong way when it is installed in a boat, but on dry land with a 5 gal pail for cooling - it doesn't matter ( it has to do with the rotate direction of the gear water pump).
The plug gap can be fairly big eg 60 thousands - JB's coil will make the thing fire - no worries on that front.
So prime the engine - set the timer to 30deg retard, and swing the flywheel backup against compression.
When it fires, it will reverse rotation and because the flywheel is so bigh there is enough energy to take it up over compression and tdc and it will fire again.
Now move the timer closer to tdc and it will run more smoothly.
I think that's enough work for you now - so get going on that buzz coil.
THe NAPA part number for the relay is AR272
miro |
Lawrence Wolfe
Member
Username: larry_from_md
Post Number: 27
Registered: 06-2010
| | Posted on Saturday, March 05, 2011 - 07:01 pm: |
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Tdc should be inline with the keyway in the flywheel. |
miro forest
Senior Member
Username: miro
Post Number: 563
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, March 06, 2011 - 06:56 am: |
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Andrew - I was looking at the spark plug - it looks like a "modern" plug. I think you'll need to replace it with a Model T Ford type of plug which has a 1/2 in pipe thread.
miro |
Ernie
Senior Member
Username: ernie
Post Number: 1322
Registered: 01-2002
| | Posted on Sunday, March 06, 2011 - 09:13 am: |
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Looks like a currnet production T plug to me.
They screw in so far you can't see any of the thread. Take a look at the pic of mine.
Andrew click on my name at the left and send me an e-mail. I am in Taunton, MA However Trolley season has started so I am in East Haven or East Windsor almost every Sat till December. Maybe we can get together.
Ernie
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Andrew Stephen
Member
Username: andy71118
Post Number: 7
Registered: 08-2010
| | Posted on Sunday, March 06, 2011 - 01:18 pm: |
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miro,
Thanks for the help. I'm going to start looking into building that buzz coil from the diagram that you sent me. It is a model T plug in there, it's just hard to tell because of the quality of the pictures. I had to re-size them to post.
Ernie,
When I get this engine ready to fire I will definitely get in touch with you. I am only about 20 minutes away from East Haven so I'm sure we could get together. As of right now I'm pretty busy with work and school (I work during the day and go to school at night) so it's probably going to take a while, but I would like to get it going before I go to Maine this summer (June).
Thanks guy's for all the help and I'll report back when I'm closer to actually firing this puppy up. |
John I Gauntt
New member
Username: grandpa_chip
Post Number: 1
Registered: 12-2015
| | Posted on Sunday, January 03, 2016 - 09:04 pm: |
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miro,
I recently, last week, took delivery of a Gray Model R. Was having trouble getting it to fire and read your posst 561 and 562. It works. I believe that I will be able to make friends with this engine. There are still a few issues like shake and wanting to run all over the floor that make it difficult to tune carburetor and timing. But, thanks again for the tips and 30 degree bounce method. Goal is to build a boat to put it in, once I have made friends. |
miro forest
Senior Member
Username: miro
Post Number: 838
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Monday, January 04, 2016 - 11:16 am: |
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I'm glad that you've started the new year with progress.
With a 1 cylinder engine, you'll always have a lot of vibration. I use a 4 ft angle irons, front and back screwed to the engine bed, and weighed down with concrete blocks to keep the engine from moving too much.
Once you get it into a boat, the vibrations will still be there, just not so violent.
Miro |
John I Gauntt
New member
Username: grandpa_chip
Post Number: 2
Registered: 12-2015
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 05, 2016 - 01:21 pm: |
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Miro,
Still working with the R engine. The few seconds that I had it running, it blew half the oil out of the oil feed unit. Should there be a check valve in the feed line going into the cylinder? |
John I Gauntt
New member
Username: grandpa_chip
Post Number: 3
Registered: 12-2015
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 05, 2016 - 01:43 pm: |
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Miro,
Just thought I'd send along a picture of my R engine. You have probably have seen a bunch of these, but I just have to do this.
 |
Ernie
Senior Member
Username: ernie
Post Number: 2206
Registered: 01-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 05, 2016 - 08:50 pm: |
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Yes the oiler must have a check valve.
Many of the oilers that one finds are machinery oilers with no internal check and no vent tube in the in the top part.
You can run the engine on pre mix gas and oil and just leave the oiler on for a decoration.
Pre mix should be roughly 16 to 1 ratio using 30W non detergent oil.
Hope this helps
Ernie |
miro forest
Senior Member
Username: miro
Post Number: 840
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Friday, January 08, 2016 - 04:18 pm: |
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Yes, Ernie is right - you DO need a check valve.
The pressure inside the crankcase is usually in the range of 5 - 8 psi . On a new engine with a well sealed crankcase, it can be as much as 10 psi.
That will certainly sneeze out the oil if there is no check valve.
Miro |
John I Gauntt
Member
Username: grandpa_chip
Post Number: 4
Registered: 12-2015
| | Posted on Friday, January 08, 2016 - 08:51 pm: |
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Well I took the oiler apart to see what. The vent tube was broken off at the base. The ball check valve was there. I believe that I can replace the vent tube but since it was missing,... How long is it supposed to be? Is it open ended on top? Or is it just a tube coming up from the base extending toward the top of the reservoir?
Then, is there supposed to be any kind of spring associated with the ball check valve?
If someone would happen to have any kind of drawing of the oiler that would be a help.
Thanks in advance for any help!
John |
Robert
Senior Member
Username: robert
Post Number: 719
Registered: 07-2003
| | Posted on Monday, July 18, 2016 - 01:48 pm: |
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Photos would help John, but if I'm guessing correctly what you have, the vent tube extends to near the top of the reservoir. On the Lunkenheimer Paragon and similar types IIRC there is no spring under the checkball, just a cross pin that retains the ball in place. Rusty balls don't seal properly of course.
I don't see any Gray Motor Co. markings on the front face of your flywheel. Maybe someone here knows if the early Gray's did not have those or perhaps your GF swapped on a different flywheel? |
John I Gauntt
Member
Username: grandpa_chip
Post Number: 6
Registered: 12-2015
| | Posted on Sunday, March 10, 2019 - 10:05 pm: |
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Well. Some time has passed. Am running on premix gas and oil. Plugged the oiler line. Using JB's buzz box plans. Bought a Schebler carb from Anthony G. and have it starting when I want it to. Hope to be at JB's in a couple of weeks with a boat special built for this motor. Appreciate the help. |
