| Author |
Message |
    
Eric Peggs
New member
Username: epeggs
Post Number: 1
Registered: 02-2017
| | Posted on Thursday, February 02, 2017 - 12:43 pm: | 
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Hi everyone! New to the site and to engine rebuilding! Hoping you all can help!
I bought a 1961 Century Ski Dart that has a Gray Marine 109 M Series engine in it with a Paragon HBD Transmission.
Could anyone tell me how to run the water cooling lines? I am new to engine rebuilding and am trying to learn as much as I can, my service manual does not tell me much.
A link to the Google Photo Album for the boat project is attached:
https://goo.gl/photos/pxgXMo6UxpVSDeeC9
I believe I have 98% of the parts to do this. I have the water pump, two heat transfer units, the lines, clamps, thermostat, thermostat housing, etc. Missing some knowledge, ha!
It appears as though water cools the transmission as well, does that sound right?
Any help is greatly appreciated! Thank you! |
miro forest
Senior Member
Username: miro
Post Number: 898
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, February 02, 2017 - 08:58 pm: |
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That looks like the Hercules block used by others eg Chris Craft and Buchanan.
IF any one knows the details of your engine , it will Jeff Titsall at Parry Automotive
He's a right good guy, likes helping folks with old motors
http://www.parryautomotive.com/machine-shop
Yes, he's in Cda ( where your money goes 30% further)
miro |
Jim Staib
Senior Member
Username: drrot
Post Number: 221
Registered: 09-2008
| | Posted on Friday, February 03, 2017 - 10:39 am: |
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Second the recommendation on Jeff.
Check the reverse gear first. If there is an issue with that most of the parts are obsolete and could be more expensive to rebuild than the engine. |
George Coates
Senior Member
Username: george_iv
Post Number: 125
Registered: 07-2003
| | Posted on Friday, February 03, 2017 - 10:11 pm: |
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First, I'm as ignorant as a box of rocks.
I just worked on a 1933 Chrysler Crown with a similar looking cooling system. The thermostat housing has 2 ports for hoses. The water is pulled from the thru hull, which is a tee, into the pump and then pushed through the oil cooler. Then the water passes thru the exhaust manifold into the cylinder block and thru the head into the thermostat housing. Ok, so the thermostat has a bypass hole to port #1 which goes to the hot exhaust side and out the transom with exhaust. That ensures water in the exhaust elbow to keep the exhaust pipe from glowing red hot until the engine warms up and the thermostat opens fully.
Before the thermostat opens fully, the semi warm water returns thru port #2 of the thermostat housing back to the tee in the inlet thru hull fitting, therefore the pump sucks in mostly recirculated warm water.
When the engine is warmed up and the thermostat is open, then all the hot water goes out port #1 overboard with the exhaust in the transom. Therefore, the recirculation thru port #2 is closed and the pump sucks all cool creek water thru the system. There are MANY pitfalls in this system. Firstly, on the Crown anyway, if someone replaces the thermostat with a non correct, non bypassed unit, ie the hole on the diaphragm isn't there or big enough, the engine will melt down. No pun intended. The gear pump is capable of a few hundred psi and will break other things along the line until the pressure is relieved. The tell for the Crown was power issues. It wouldn't develop any horsepower because the timing had to be so retard to keep it from pinging which caused the exhaust to burn the paint off for lack of cooling thru the bypass hole in the thermostat. Very vexing...
I'm certainly not supposing the Gray is the same as the Crown, but from the pictures you shared they seem very similar.
Hope this helps,
George |
Ned Lloyd
Senior Member
Username: ned_l
Post Number: 84
Registered: 08-2012
| | Posted on Saturday, February 04, 2017 - 06:51 pm: |
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The "Gray 109" is based on the Continental "F226" (225 cid) industrial engine. (Chris Crafts were Hercules engines, and Chryslers were Chryslers (automotive)).
George has the normal routing correct, however I see some differences on your engine.
The big water jacket hole (about 1 1/2" or so) on the aft end of the head should have just a blanking cover plate over it.
The "temperature gauge housing" on the forward end of your head appears to not be a thermostat bypass housing. It appears to have only one outlet line. If this is the case, the water flow would be ..... in the thruhull and to the water pump, then through the oil coolers (you should have two, one for the Reverse gear and one for the lube oil (on the side of the block)), then in the rear of the manifold and out the front of the manifold. Next it should go in the rear of the of the block, in that oblong hole that would be just above the rear bell housing (do you have the plate that fits there? It should have a pipe that leads off sideways.). Then the water comes out of the forward end of the head. If there is only one outlet it would then go to the exhaust elbow. (If there are two outlets from the temperature gauge housing (then it is a thermostat housing, and would be routed/diverted as George suggests.)
Your water pump must be a rather late model setup as most Grays had the water pump driven off the back of the generator.
I could probably help out with some pictures if you need them, I have two "109's" in my garage. |
Ned Lloyd
Senior Member
Username: ned_l
Post Number: 86
Registered: 08-2012
| | Posted on Saturday, February 04, 2017 - 09:50 pm: |
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Ok,.. I see you do have the reverse gear oil cooler. Maybe you should lay out all the pieces you have and take a picture of all of them if you still need help |
Eric Peggs
New member
Username: epeggs
Post Number: 2
Registered: 02-2017
| | Posted on Thursday, February 09, 2017 - 10:07 am: |
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Thank you everyone for posting. My dad ran some of the old water lines that came with the engine to see if we could start figuring this thing out based on your information. He took some pics and just posted them to my google photos album.
Link: https://goo.gl/photos/pxgXMo6UxpVSDeeC9
Please take a look and let us know if we are on the right track. We think we are missing 2 hoses, which i have and have not been able to get over there to help complete.
Thanks again for all your help!
Eric |
Ned Lloyd
Senior Member
Username: ned_l
Post Number: 88
Registered: 08-2012
| | Posted on Thursday, February 09, 2017 - 08:33 pm: |
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Yes,.. It looks like you are on the right path. I see you still need the hose from the output of the water pump to the lube oil cooler. Being a 'right hand' engine it looks like the output of the pump should be the fitting that points across the top of the bell housing.
I'm starting to wonder about the fittings on each end of the head. I see that what you have on on the aft end of the head is s lot more than just a cover plate. Could you take pictures of the fittings that are on both ends of the head, both top and bottom views (covering those large waterjacket holes). Do I see some sort of a spacer under the forward fitting? (Sorry,.. I'm working off cell phone size pictures.).
Are there by chance thermostats in both those fittings????
I'm trying to figure out what you might have going on there. |
Eric Peggs
New member
Username: epeggs
Post Number: 3
Registered: 02-2017
| | Posted on Friday, February 10, 2017 - 09:48 am: |
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I will be out there today to finish up with the water lines and fuel lines and will get some pictures and post to that photo album.
Off of memory, yes under the one towards the front of the head, that one has a thermostat in it and that spacer came with it. Not sure if that is the correct location for one, we just put it there. Is there supposed to be a thermostat in both? Right now we just have the one.
Today I am going to run the water line from the pump to the lube oil cooler and was going run a line from the aft end waterjack to the Tee.
I have seen online (various places) that some people have covered the aft end waterjack up and not used it. Is that an option for us with this engine? |
Ned Lloyd
Senior Member
Username: ned_l
Post Number: 89
Registered: 08-2012
| | Posted on Friday, February 10, 2017 - 02:19 pm: |
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On every 109 I have seen,... and the two that I have, that aft large water jacket opening in the head is simply blocked off with a cover plate.
What has me a bit baffled about your setup is lack of a "recirculating loop". ... The usual setup is to have a two output hoses from that fitting on the forward top of the head. The thermostat would normally divert a good bit of the water from one output hose to the other. When the engine is cold, most of the water is diverted to the 'bypass' output hose, which then leads it back to the cooling pump intake (effectively circulating most of the water in a closed loop, to warm the engine quickly.) A percentage of the water coming out of the top of the head always does go over to the exhaust elbow (to cool and quiet it, until the engine warms up, then all the water goes that way).
With your setup, (with what I am guessing an 'automotive' type of thermostat in that housing) you will need to have a reasonable hole drilled through the 'shutoff disk' in the thermostat, so that enough water alway passes by it to cool and silence the exhaust.
Does this make smy sense? |
Ned Lloyd
Senior Member
Username: ned_l
Post Number: 90
Registered: 08-2012
| | Posted on Sunday, February 12, 2017 - 09:27 am: |
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Hold on,...... I gave you some wrong I nformation. ....I just remembered I have some Graymarine manual reprints. I have One that covers up to 1965 (the era of your engine), and it shows your waterpump and cooling setup. Your engine does use both waterjacket openings on the head. The forward housing (with the thermostat) leads to the exhaust elbow. The aft or rear housing has a pressure valve, which leads effectively back to the cooling water inlet of the water pump (recirculation line).
Sorry about that.
I will post a picture of the page and of the diagram later for you. |
Ned Lloyd
Senior Member
Username: ned_l
Post Number: 91
Registered: 08-2012
| | Posted on Monday, February 13, 2017 - 09:30 am: |
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This should help to clarify things
[img]https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a7dc32b3127cceee0f2f4d24f200000030O12Bbs3DVuz ZA9vPhI/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00200375837020170213142513203.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D1/rx%3D550/r y%3D400/[/img]
[img]https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a7dc32b3127cceee0f1e4d647200000040O02Bbs3DVuzZA9vPhI/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00200375837020170213142511851.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/[/img]
Sorry, I guess I can't link photos from my photo hosting site, and I have to figure out how to resize the images to fit here. |
Eric Peggs
Member
Username: epeggs
Post Number: 4
Registered: 02-2017
| | Posted on Monday, February 13, 2017 - 11:30 am: |
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i had issues posting photos as well. That is why I resorted to the google photos album.
I have added pics of us running the water lines for our 109. Feel free to take a look at the last pics in the album. Link: https://photos.google.com/share/AF1QipM8xOBlnumZdaeVVK7kzF3_GWlHRkMN_GLhKndag9rB zI0QhmfY8G1fMnYWPZ3fjA?key=ejltZFMtQlZIMUduOU1OYzVzTGpobXBtRC1zYVJn
there is also a video of us turning the motor, no spark yet as we havent hooked the electrical yet.
I do think we have the piping set up correctly. please look at the photos and let us know what you think. If we have it right we will be moving on to the electrical part this week! We are getting close to starting this thing and we are getting excited. |
Ned Lloyd
Senior Member
Username: ned_l
Post Number: 92
Registered: 08-2012
| | Posted on Monday, February 13, 2017 - 01:57 pm: |
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It looks like you have all the water lines correct, and you are matching the diagram I tried to post. (Sorry again about that wrong information for your engine).
I watched your video. Yep, looks like you are getting close to running.
You will need heavier jumper cables to get it to turn over quicker. also, it sounds like you may have one or two cylinders with valves that aren't sealing too well. I wouldn't worry about doing anything until you have the engine up and running for a while and things get where they want to be again. Good luck! |
Ned Lloyd
Senior Member
Username: ned_l
Post Number: 93
Registered: 08-2012
| | Posted on Monday, February 13, 2017 - 02:16 pm: |
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Oh, .... Something else I would suggest. Did you check the bottom of the head for flatness before you put it back on? As much as we all don't want to 'go backwards' in projects, I would really suggest checking the bottom of the head with a really good straight edge. Years ago I had anther Gray109 in a skiff of mine and I must have gone through at least 4 heads (all cracked). I just could not keep heads on that engine. (At least back then I could find parts pretty easily, these engines were just laying around boat yards.)
So, .... fast forward to the past two years and I get a boat with a pair of Chrysler Crowns (265 CID flat head sixes, .... very similar engine, just a bit larger.) I had to pull the head off one engine, ....then while talking to my local engine shop guy (very experienced) he recommended that I check the head for flatness. We looked at the head in the back of my truck and he checked it with a straight edge. He ended up machining off .020" to get it flat.
He suggested I pull the other head to check it too, and said that flat head 'heads' (even little four cylinder heads) are notorious for warping, and if they are warped can then crack at any time (even if on the engine for years). I pulled the other head and checked it, that needed .020" off to make it flat again too.
Since then I have wondered if years ago I went through 4 heads, and then ultimately the engine unnecessarily because of warped heads that could have been corrected. |
Eric Peggs
Member
Username: epeggs
Post Number: 5
Registered: 02-2017
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 14, 2017 - 09:18 am: |
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Thank you ned for all of your input and advice so far. It has definitely helped get us this far.
We did not check the head for flatness, everything seemed to be okay when we put it on. That is something we will look into if we run into issues. Our main goal right now is to see if this engine will run or if we need to look into something else.
sounds like the valves not sealing may take care of itself once the engine gets running?
Very interesting about the head flatness....being new to engines i am sure we would have never thought of that. |
Ned Lloyd
Senior Member
Username: ned_l
Post Number: 94
Registered: 08-2012
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 14, 2017 - 05:23 pm: |
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It doesn't take much dirt in a valve seat to keep them from sealing properly, and if the engine hasn't run in a good while the rings may be dry or a bit stuck. Considering the head is on now I would leave it until you have things up and running. Yep, definitely get it running for a while and see how things go (I wouldn't even bother with a compression test until it has run for a good while). This will clean off the valve seats and get the rings sealing again.
Once you know how things are I would definitely recommend pulling the head and checking it. If it needs machining, any decent engine shop should be able to do that with no problem at all (I paid $75 a piece for each of mine.) It really is cheap insurance, having been there it is really an oh crap moment if the head cracks. |
Eric Peggs
Member
Username: epeggs
Post Number: 6
Registered: 02-2017
| | Posted on Friday, February 17, 2017 - 12:18 pm: |
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I did not see your post in time, so we ended up doing a compression test. had the following compression
1 @ 100
2 @ 105
3 @ 100
4 @ 90
5 @ 105
6 @ 55
We are hoping it running will clean out the valve seats and rings and bring up the compressionon number 4 and 6 cylinders.
Just got a video from my dad, the generator is working which is great news. The voltage regulator we have does not work. We have a cap, spark plug wires, ends and points on order.
I believe we have the wrong fuel pump for it. The one I have runs parallel with the engine block and gets close too the flywheel. A rebuilt, correct fuel pump is about $250. Is there a way around this? I was thinking about looking into an electric fuel pump and then covering the hole for the mechanical pump with a steel plate and gasket. Please let me know your thoughts or if anyone has done this. Thanks!
After we get the fuel pump situation figured out I think we will be firing it up! |
Ned Lloyd
Senior Member
Username: ned_l
Post Number: 95
Registered: 08-2012
| | Posted on Friday, February 17, 2017 - 11:55 pm: |
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Yes you could use an electric fuel pump and put a cover plate over the hole. Those compression numbers are more than fine to get the engine running on. Yes, you will have to see if that #6 improves after a bit of running. To just have a decent running engine I think the other numbers are ok. |
Eric Peggs
Member
Username: epeggs
Post Number: 7
Registered: 02-2017
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 21, 2017 - 08:41 pm: |
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Thank you ned. We are so close to firing this engine over! When I bought the boat and engine there was a box full of parts that came with it. Included was a mechanical fuel pump. I got it to fit onto the block (pic included in the album) I am pretty sure it is not the correct one for a marine application. So we are going to go with this one for now.
We hit a bit of a road block today with the ignition system. Hoping you can help Ned (or anyone willing to chime in). We are having problems with the distributor cap. There are NOT numbers on the distributor cap to tell us which spark-plug wire goes where. The head has the cylinders/sparkplugs numbered but not the distributor cap. Is there another way to figure this out?
We tried taking the spark plug out and looking down hole to see the cylinder position but all we can see is the two valves. Will the position of the valves indicate the position of the cylinders?
Someone suggested using the compression tester to determine the position of cylinder 1. Highest pressure = cylinder at top.
Any of this sound right?Im a little lost with this.
Thanks in advance! We really appreciate all the help! |
Ned Lloyd
Senior Member
Username: ned_l
Post Number: 98
Registered: 08-2012
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 22, 2017 - 01:27 pm: |
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The engine is looking good!
That fuel pump should work fine for now. The difference between and automotive and marine fuel pump is that if a hole in the diaphragm happens an automotive fuel pump will leak the gas to the outside where it will drip on the ground under the car. A marine fuel pump housing is 'sealed' so that a leak in the diaphragm will send the leaking gas into the engine crank case and not into the bilge of the boat where it can cause an explosion.
The firing order is "1,5,3,6,2,4" (universal for all six cylinder engines), and should be cast into the head.
If I remember correctly you should be able to just barely see the edge of the cylinder through the spark plug hole, and as the piston is flush with the top of the block at TDC (top dead center) you should be able to see the edge of the piston. If not, ... yes a compression test (or even just your finger over the spark plug hole) should get you in the area of #1 @ TDC. Or you could take a piece of something like coat hanger wire and bend sort of a 'z' shape into it so that when you put it through the spark plug hole you can 'feel' the piston. (Remember again that the piston will come up to the top of the block, so you don't want a long tail of wire sticking down in the cylinder that could get crunched as the piston comes up.)
Once you have an idea of where #1 TDC is I would suggest putting a chalk mark or similar on the flywheel and on the bell housing so you can find it easily again.
With this located, look at the rotor in the dist and it will be pointing to the #1 position on the cap. You may need to loosen the distributor clamp and rotate the distributor to get the rotor to actually point at a position on the cap. Your ignition wires will then simply follow around from #1 to 5, to 3, to 6, to 2, to 4, in the direction the distributor turns (I din't remember which way it turns.)
If you want to get fussy, and don't like "cosmetically" the posts that the ignition wires go to, you can loosen the distributor and lift it up, move the rotor to where "you" want the #1 wire to go, drop the distributor back in place and then follow around with the wires in sequence of 1,5,3,6,2,4,. (I hope I didn't confuse you with this fussiness that is really only a 'visual' thing.
As there are no timing marks on this engine (or many marine engines of that ere) you cannot use a timing light on it. I would recommend starting out with the ignition retarded quite a bit at first (firing after TDC) and then advance the timing a bit. really the only way to time these marine engines is to "power time" them. When you get the boat finished and take her out to run her, open the throttle most of the way (between 3/4 and wide open) , loosen the distributor and advance the timing until you just start to hear it knock or ping and then back off a couple of degrees. (Keep in mind that on a boat it is quite a bit more difficult to hear the engine knocking than in a car, so you want to be on the safe side and run the timing a bit more retarded than you might in a car.
I might suggest that if you do have the head off again (as we discussed above), you should mark the flywheel and bell housing for #1 TDC (when you can be exactly sure of where it is. A little paint and an artist brush is good for making thin hash marks. You can then do some math and figure out how far something like 5 degrees after and 5, 10, 15 degrees before TDC is on the flywheel and mark those spots with paint hash marks. This will then allow you to use a timing light.
Let me know if I was unclear or if you have any questions. Good luck. |
Eric Peggs
Member
Username: epeggs
Post Number: 8
Registered: 02-2017
| | Posted on Sunday, February 26, 2017 - 03:30 pm: |
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I took the spark plug off, looked down and towards the cylinder, you were right! I was able to see the very edge of the cylinder and was able to determine TDC. On the flywheel there was a drill hole that we used as a marker. so that worked out great.
Going over today, to put on the new spark plug wires, distributor cap, rotor and points. Going to test for spark. If we have it, gonna fire it up! Hopefully!
I am on the search for a voltage regulator for this engine. I have two old ones that came with it but the part numbers are worn off. I did a google search for "bosch 12v voltage regulator" and the number that popped up often is RGS12G108. Does this sound right to you?
Thanks! |
Ned Lloyd
Senior Member
Username: ned_l
Post Number: 101
Registered: 08-2012
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 28, 2017 - 09:14 pm: |
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Good luck with giving it a go!
Unfortunately I have no information about what regulator would go with the generator on your engine. ( your generator is different, and a different setup than mine.) Sorry about this. |
Eric Peggs
Member
Username: epeggs
Post Number: 9
Registered: 02-2017
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 01, 2017 - 05:57 pm: |
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we did not have any luck firing it over. Changed the points, rotor, coil, cap inside the distributor, spark plug wires and set the points....no spark. Reset the points correctly, still no spark. Going to try again tomorrow.
I understand about the regulator. Its actually been hard to find info on this exact same set up. We have been talking with Van Ness a little and contacted Jeff from an earlier post, both were helpful and we order some parts from Van Ness. Once we get it fired over, we are going to look into the regulator more. No sense in spending the money if it wont fire over. LOL
Ill keep you posted! |
Ned Lloyd
Senior Member
Username: ned_l
Post Number: 102
Registered: 08-2012
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 01, 2017 - 07:38 pm: |
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Are the points new or just different? It can really amazing how corroded points can get, and it can really take some work with an ignition file to get them clean enough to work. That or a bad condenser can get quite frustrating.
With the compression numbers you have there is no reason you shouldn't have a running engine. You only need three things, compression, fuel and spark. You have the biggest (compression), the other two can get frustrating, but aren't usually big issues, aren't expensive.
Keep at it and go through things methodically, change one thing at a time to figure it out.
Keep working on it,.. it will run for you. |
Eric Peggs
Member
Username: epeggs
Post Number: 10
Registered: 02-2017
| | Posted on Thursday, March 02, 2017 - 01:27 pm: |
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Thank you Ned!
We are going to look over the ignition system again and try to get spark, from there it will just be adding fuel. The fuel pump works, I manually test it out before mounting and the carb has been rebuilt. Carb will need some tuning but we are confident it is good to go.
So close....once we get spark, I will start taking videos of us trying to start it up and post to the album on Google. |
Ned Lloyd
Senior Member
Username: ned_l
Post Number: 103
Registered: 08-2012
| | Posted on Thursday, March 02, 2017 - 05:02 pm: |
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sounds good |
Eric Peggs
Member
Username: epeggs
Post Number: 11
Registered: 02-2017
| | Posted on Saturday, March 04, 2017 - 12:16 pm: |
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We have spark, we have fuel, we have compression. We determined last night that we are out of time by 180 degrees. I posted a couple of videos to the album and a picture of my pointing at a port. There was a steady stream of water coming out of that port. Couldnt find threads but could be wrong. The port is right next to where the oil cooler is for the engine.
Should we just plug it up and move forward? |
Bruce Hall
Senior Member
Username: bruce
Post Number: 596
Registered: 07-2002
| | Posted on Sunday, March 05, 2017 - 01:04 am: |
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Missing freeze plug??? |
Ned Lloyd
Senior Member
Username: ned_l
Post Number: 104
Registered: 08-2012
| | Posted on Sunday, March 05, 2017 - 02:45 pm: |
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I'm about 98% certain that is just a drain for the block. I just looked at my two 109's. One has nothing there and the other has a 1/4" pipe plug real close to there.
Depending on the size of the hole in yours it should just be a 1/8" or 1/4" NPT thead and plug.
That is the pipe plug you would pull to drain the block it you don't want to run antifreeze through it for the winter. (Would also need to drain the water pump, both oil coolers and the manifold.
It sounds good turning over. Now you just need to get it to fire. (Lol). After you have been cranking it for a while are the plugs wet (with gas) or dry?
Where do you have the carb needle valves set? Gently close them all the way then back them out about 1 1/2 turns should be a good starting point until you get it going.
Also be careful how long you crank it over, you don't want to overheat the starter.
You're getting close. |
Eric Peggs
Member
Username: epeggs
Post Number: 12
Registered: 02-2017
| | Posted on Monday, March 06, 2017 - 10:47 am: |
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Bruce and Ned, thank you.
I do believe it is a freeze plug. Is that something I can just pick up at an auto parts store or do I need to order one from somewhere?
My brother(the person in the video) is the one that worked on the carb, I will let him know what you said about closing the needle valves and backing them out for when we start it up.
Thank you guys for responding. We are getting pretty excited about getting this engine started! |
Ned Lloyd
Senior Member
Username: ned_l
Post Number: 105
Registered: 08-2012
| | Posted on Monday, March 06, 2017 - 02:08 pm: |
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If it is a 'freeze plug' yes you can pick it up at an auto parts store (ideally for marine you want brass).
I am still inclined to think it is tapped (NPT) for a pipe plug.
The term "freeze plug" is a bit of a misnomer. they are really "core plugs" and are the holes that are left over from the casting process, to position and hold the sand core in place that forms the water jacket. It is just a convenient coincidence that the plugs can -sometimes- pop out and prevent the block from cracking it the engine is left with water in it during freezing weather. (Thus the common name freeze plugs.)
The actual core plugs (freeze plugs) are the big discs farther up the block. (About 1 3/4" in diameter) |
Eric Peggs
Member
Username: epeggs
Post Number: 13
Registered: 02-2017
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 07, 2017 - 10:38 am: |
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Looks like the local auto parts store has pipe plugs in a variety pack for like $7. Looks like a few of them are even brass.
I will let you know which one it takes when I get back out there. |
Eric Peggs
Member
Username: epeggs
Post Number: 14
Registered: 02-2017
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 07, 2017 - 08:57 pm: |
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The port where the water comes thru is definitely NOT threaded. Took a flat head screw driver and felt around for threads, completely smooth inside the port/hole.
Would it be wrong to tap the hole and plug it with a pipe plug? Or since it has no threads does this mean it is a press in freeze plug? |
Ned Lloyd
Senior Member
Username: ned_l
Post Number: 108
Registered: 08-2012
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 08, 2017 - 12:54 pm: |
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That is quite odd. I did some looking on line and found a picture of another 109 with what looks like a hex head pipe plug there.
Obviously it needs to be plugged with something.
A core plug / freeze plug really needs a machined hole (truly round and smooth) to fit properly. Your best bet might be to tap it for NPT.
I don't know what the original intent was for your engine, .... curious.
........... Anyone else?????? |
Eric Peggs
Member
Username: epeggs
Post Number: 15
Registered: 02-2017
| | Posted on Thursday, March 09, 2017 - 08:58 pm: |
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Today was an AMAZING day in the boat garage! We got it fired up! and it runs well. Transmission shifts, water seems to circulate. Started up 3 times and got it to idle down.
We plugged that hole with a pipe thread and it worked out great.
There are two videos of us firing it up, the first one is pretty blurry. It was raining and a rain drop got onto the camera lense of my phone. The second is much better quality. They have been uploaded to the google photos. Here is the link for the album again https://goo.gl/photos/pxgXMo6UxpVSDeeC9
We are going to do a compression test on each cylinder this weekend and flush out the water system really well. The water that came out of the hose was pretty nasty. Hell, it sat for 33 years. |
Eric Peggs
Member
Username: epeggs
Post Number: 16
Registered: 02-2017
| | Posted on Thursday, March 09, 2017 - 09:01 pm: |
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Heat Exchange Units:
We have two on our engine, are they necessary anymore?
The reason I ask: we have one going bad. It is leak water out and onto the floor not into the oil. The oil and transmission fluid are still in tact.
I am just curious if this is something we can get rid of due to the quality of oil changing so much between 1958 and 2017. Has anyone ever done this? |
Ned Lloyd
Senior Member
Username: ned_l
Post Number: 110
Registered: 08-2012
| | Posted on Friday, March 10, 2017 - 01:28 pm: |
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Congratulations! It sounds good. .... I don't know if you have looked into the speed rating for these engines, they are 'low speed' by today's standards. Wide open, the Gray 109 is rated at a whole 3200 RPM. They should also idle down to a nice 'ticking' 500 RPM (you can practically watch the flywheel turn). With this in mind you want to be careful how much you open it up with no load (high speed with no load is usually discouraged, for the good of the engine).
As for the oil coolers, they are there to cool the oil, not really related to not needing them because of newer oil technology. -- Still want to cool it. I suppose you might be able to get away without (as this is in a small light weight boat), but if possible I would try to keep the coolers on. It would certainly be better to do so.
Which one is leaking? the lube oil or the reverse gear oil? yours are copper on the outside, so given the looks of how, where and why it is leaking you could simply solder the leak (really a simple process). The concern is how close are the tubes to likewise starting to leak (water in the oil).
You might keep an eye on Ebay, your coolers are pretty generic. |
Eric Peggs
Member
Username: epeggs
Post Number: 17
Registered: 02-2017
| | Posted on Saturday, March 11, 2017 - 02:24 pm: |
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Soldering could work. It is leaking where the cone part meets the tubular part. The leaking oil cooler is for the reverse gear oil. There i no water in the fluid or in the engine oil so I think we are good in that aspect.
We will give soldering a shot and see what result we can get. I will keep you posted! Thank you for bringing that to my attention. My dad had mentioned doing that as well! |
Eric Peggs
Member
Username: epeggs
Post Number: 18
Registered: 02-2017
| | Posted on Saturday, March 18, 2017 - 09:07 am: |
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I am on the search for Tachometer Cabling. I have the old tach from the boat, the cable housing and a bad cable.
Does anyone know where I can find one? Would really like to get a tach gauge and an oil pressure gauge on this engine.
Thanks |
George Coates III
Member
Username: giii
Post Number: 28
Registered: 04-2010
| | Posted on Saturday, March 18, 2017 - 09:19 am: |
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Any speedometer shop,if they still exist, should be able to fix it for you. Maybe you can find the inner cable and end fittings online?
George |
Ned Lloyd
Senior Member
Username: ned_l
Post Number: 118
Registered: 08-2012
| | Posted on Saturday, March 18, 2017 - 09:41 am: |
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As George said, if the inner flexible core that is broken you should be able to have a new core made up. |
Eric Peggs
Member
Username: epeggs
Post Number: 19
Registered: 02-2017
| | Posted on Sunday, March 19, 2017 - 10:30 am: |
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George and Ned thank you so much for posting. It looks like there is a local speedo shop. I will be calling them this week!
For testing purposes I went to Tractor Supply and got a 4' cable that would normally go to a Ford Tractor. It actually worked! I was able to see the RPM's the engine was putting out. So that was awesome. I will need to look into getting the old one fixed as the cable will need to be long due to the placement of the engine in the boat.... The tachometer gauge was stuck in place so I had to stick a very small flat head screw driver in the hole and manually turn it....i guess sitting for at least 30 years would make anyone pretty stiff and not want to move. HA!
I couldnt get the engine to idle down like I wanted to yesterday(i really wanted to hear the engine at idle speed, love that sound) but I think that is bc i need to adjust the carb. THe engine fired up multiple times, shifted gears just fine. I think I have a water pump that is bad, will be checking more into that one very soon. I have a sherwood pump on it now. Any leads would be much appreciated!
Overall, very pleased with this engine! Love the sound of it, seems like it is going to have more than enough horse power.
Thanks again for all your postings and advice! Very much appreciated as I am very very new to engines overall! |
Ned Lloyd
Senior Member
Username: ned_l
Post Number: 119
Registered: 08-2012
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 22, 2017 - 07:46 pm: |
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Very good! It sounds like you are getting things under control.
Have you removed the back cover plate off the water pump to see what the impeller looks like? Keep in mind that those "jabsco" types of water pumps (flexible neoprene impellers) don't like to run "dry" for more than about 15 seconds. The impeller will heat up and self destroy if run much longer than that without wate for lubricating and cooling.
If need be (and quite frankly a good idea given how long your engine sat) it should be pretty easy to find a new impeller on line. There should be a Sherwood part number somewhere on the pump (possibly stamped on the rear cover) that should x-reference on line. (Probably about $40 +/-). If is still intact you can save the old impeller for an emergency spare. When these impellers let go they can really self destruct and send small pieces onto the first oil cooler and tend to plug it up, so you don"t really want to get to that point.
Also the paper gaskets for the cover plate are very thin, and really need to be of that correct thickness. Too thin and the excess side pressure on the impeller will cause it to heat up and self destroy. Too thick and water will leak fast the side face of the impeller causing it to move less water.
My 109's are for a 16ft lapstrake Jersey speed skiff (not all that different in size and weight from your boat). It does about 32 knots (37+/- mph) and was great for waterskiing behind. |
Eric Peggs
Member
Username: epeggs
Post Number: 20
Registered: 02-2017
| | Posted on Monday, March 27, 2017 - 09:53 am: |
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Ned thank you for the info. I will be looking into the impeller and the water pump this week. I just posted some videos and pics of the boat project and the engine today to the google photos album.
I put what appeared to be a newer impeller into the water pump and cranked the engine. The engine did not fire up when i did this, but there was no water pumped into the engine. I had the hose ran into a bucket of water....Does the engine need to be up to speed for it to pump water into the block?
Do you know of any websites I can find the impeller and gaskets?
I have been told this engine will run close to 40mph and slightly over in my boat. Which is plenty for me. I like to cruise in a boat about 25mph. I would like to try and water ski behind, just to say I tried it! HA! We are getting ready to flip the boat back over, repaint the engine and place the engine into the boat....Hoping to have all of that done by the beginning to middle of May for a show here in STL. We will see if that happens....I dont like to put deadlines on myself. |
Ned Lloyd
Senior Member
Username: ned_l
Post Number: 122
Registered: 08-2012
| | Posted on Thursday, March 30, 2017 - 12:59 pm: |
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Those pumps will pump water at any speed. They are also 'self priming', so it should be moving water with the hose simply in a bucket. -- Though without starting it could take a fair bit of 'cranking' to fill both oil coolers and the hoses between the pump and the block (also have to fill the exhaust manifold if you really mean the "block".)
The impeller that you show in the pictures with the veins 'set' slightly in one direction,.... if the veins look in pretty good condition you can turn the impeller around and put it in the other way. That will tend to even out the 'set' in the rubber veins.
That engine in a 16ft boat will be a real nice boat for water skiing (water skiing is usually 25 - 35 +/-)
The boat is looking nice! I'm looking forward to seeing it upright. (wooden boats and restorations are really 'my thing'.)
Good luck! |
Eric Peggs
Member
Username: epeggs
Post Number: 21
Registered: 02-2017
| | Posted on Saturday, April 01, 2017 - 12:05 pm: |
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We are going to test the pump out today....again. just to see what we can get it to do.
I've been doing some research on this engine, it seems as though Jeep Willy used the same block in some of their vehicles. Ive been looking at the auto parts stores for certain parts using this and parts a becoming more available now....
Since I got the tach gauge working I want to try to get some of the other gauges to work as well. The gauge I have has RPM, Oil Pressure, Amps and a Water Temp Light all on it. Id like to get Oil Pressure working. Where does the Oil Pressure Sending Unit mount to the engine?
Lastly (for today, HA!), finding a voltage regulator has been a chore. The ones I do find are EXPENSIVE!!!! Has anyone converted this engine from Generator to Alternator? If so, which parts did you use. I am thinking about using a mid 80's alternator off of a GM product. Biggest issue with this is mounting....any advice is greatly appreciated! |
Eric Peggs
Member
Username: epeggs
Post Number: 22
Registered: 02-2017
| | Posted on Monday, April 03, 2017 - 01:25 pm: |
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The water pump had no suction. It rotates. we do not have the gasket it for it so we think that is why. When connected to the garden house the pump leaked water......so we are going to seal it up and retest. |
Eric Peggs
Member
Username: epeggs
Post Number: 23
Registered: 02-2017
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 03, 2017 - 10:59 pm: |
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Water pump is working great! We have the thermostat in and its working great as well. Have a leak in one of the heat exchangers but I think it can be soldered again. If not, might be on a search for one of those.
Voltage regulator, i bought one from AutoZone, wired it up and it held at 14-ish volts for about 5 minutes and then jumped up to 17 volts. I stopped the engine when this happened because I didnt want to burn up my battery. Is there something I am missing? Is this normal? I followed the wiring diagram in the service manual.
I believe we do have a valve problem. I posted a video of the engine running to the google photos album (I will put the link below), most recent test run. It seems to be missing. Did a compression test:
1 @ 142
2 @ 145
3 @ 135
4 @ 140
5 @ 140
6 @ 144
With number 3 being lower, should I reset the valves and do another test run? Any advice is (as always) greatly appreciated!
Link to most recent video of engine running:
https://goo.gl/photos/wkKcLgJJ1QzmnGYdA
link to album (just in case):
https://goo.gl/photos/pxgXMo6UxpVSDeeC9
Thank you so much for all the advice everyone has given! With you all, we would not be this far on this engine and rebuild! |
Ned Lloyd
Senior Member
Username: ned_l
Post Number: 131
Registered: 08-2012
| | Posted on Thursday, May 04, 2017 - 10:58 pm: |
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Sorry I lost track of time here. It sounds like you you are making headway.
Unfortunately I will have to plead ignorance on the generator and regulator charging system. I actually have to do a lot of learning myself.
I think you should be very pleased with those compression numbers. They are good, and even too. (Rule of thumb is you want them all within 10% of each other. You are well within that.). Out of curiosity did you check the valve lash? Considering you don't know the history of who put it together (other than what you did) I would suggest chcking that. |
Eric Peggs
Member
Username: epeggs
Post Number: 24
Registered: 02-2017
| | Posted on Saturday, May 06, 2017 - 09:37 am: |
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We were reading the service manual again and noticed that we may have the carb main jet setting wrong which can lead to fouled plugs and maybe the reason we are missing. The number 3 and 4 plugs were pretty black and that is right where the carb is on the manifold. We are going to make that adjustment and I am going to check the Valve Lash as well. Once we get the voltage regulator and missing problems solved the engine is going to get painted and put into the boat.
Good to hear our compression numbers are good! I was worried about that number 3.
Thank you for posting! I will keep you updated! |
Ned Lloyd
Senior Member
Username: ned_l
Post Number: 132
Registered: 08-2012
| | Posted on Monday, May 08, 2017 - 12:43 pm: |
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It sounds like you may be running too rich on the main needle valve setting. A good starting point for the adjustment is turn it in all the way (gently) and then back it out about 1 1/2 turns. That usually gets you to a point were you can get it running well enough to make a good adjustment. Usually you have to put the engine under load (take the boat out on the water). When under load and running at a good speed (something like 3/4 throttle or more) you turn the needle valve in until the engine starts to loose RPM (starved for gas) and then back it out until it is running nicely again, then maybe a bit more (better for the engine to run a bit rich than too lean). |
Eric Peggs
Member
Username: epeggs
Post Number: 28
Registered: 02-2017
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 17, 2017 - 11:24 am: |
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Made the carb adjustments and it is running much better while on the trailer. Thank you for the advice! |
Ned Lloyd
Senior Member
Username: ned_l
Post Number: 135
Registered: 08-2012
| | Posted on Friday, May 19, 2017 - 09:24 pm: |
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Ahhh,..... Good to hear. I'm looking forward to seeing it in the boat. |
Eric Peggs
Member
Username: epeggs
Post Number: 29
Registered: 02-2017
| | Posted on Sunday, June 11, 2017 - 02:37 pm: |
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i have done a lot of work to the engine lately! I just put up about 30 pics on the google photos album. Here is the link again. https://goo.gl/photos/pxgXMo6UxpVSDeeC9
painted the block, head, bell housings and transmission pontiac blue. The cap on the can looked to be the closest to the graymarine "green". Turned out a little lighter than I anticipated, but I really like the way it looks with the black generator, starter and water pump.
We are going to test run it again just to make sure everything is fine and then put it in the boat so we can build around it.
Thank you all for all of the advice you have given along this curvy road! |
Frederic Lynes
New member
Username: flynes
Post Number: 2
Registered: 06-2017
| | Posted on Sunday, June 11, 2017 - 05:56 pm: |
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Eric, your project is awesome. Motivates me to get started on mine. I have a 1960 Mercury Sabre (no relation at all to MerCruiser) with the GrayMarine Phantom 118. Once I get the new 360cid installed in my motorhome, the Gray is coming out and going on the engine stand. |
Ned Lloyd
Senior Member
Username: ned_l
Post Number: 142
Registered: 08-2012
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 14, 2017 - 10:43 pm: |
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It looks great! Good luck, and let us know when the boat hits the water. |
Eric Peggs
Member
Username: epeggs
Post Number: 30
Registered: 02-2017
| | Posted on Friday, June 16, 2017 - 11:56 am: |
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We are going to attempt a test run in the water, hopefully in the fall.
I just lifted the engine off of the boat trailer, its sitting at a friends house now while I restore the boat trailer to be road worthy. Once that is done we are putting the boat on the trailer and putting the engine in the boat along with all of the drive-train parts. Then we will test...hell, might be before the fall.....one can only hope!
Fred! Glad I could get you motivated! I gotta say, once I found out the block of my engine was used in a 1958 Jeep Truck, parts become readily available. Good luck! Keep us posted on your progress! |
Bruce Hall
Senior Member
Username: bruce
Post Number: 603
Registered: 07-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 20, 2017 - 10:05 pm: |
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Eric Peggs I've heard that Gray Marine green is the same as Detroit Diesel Green |
Eric Peggs
Advanced Member
Username: epeggs
Post Number: 31
Registered: 02-2017
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 21, 2017 - 05:06 pm: |
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thank you bruce!
that does look very similar. |
Frederic Lynes
New member
Username: flynes
Post Number: 3
Registered: 06-2017
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 21, 2017 - 08:08 pm: |
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I second what Bruce said. I'm friends with a restoration guy in California and, when he came to Idaho to look at my Mercury Sabre, he confirmed what Bruce said about the color. His words were, "Detroit Diesel Green is a 99.99% match to the original GrayMarine Phantom Green. No judge will ever be able to tell the difference."
And, yes, the '58 Jeep Truck engine parts are the same. Not many folks know that and get frustrated, but the fact is that a lot of Jeep parts were used on other applications. For example, the 1965 Jeep CJ-5 master cylinder was used on the Evinrude-made boat trailers with hydraulic surge brakes. Took me a month of research to find that out. The difference in price from the OEM master cylinder to the Jeep master cylinder was a bit over $100. |
