|
| Author |
Message |
    
Sam Kronick
Visitor
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 13, 2016 - 02:41 pm: | 
|
Hi all,
I purchased a 1974 Islander 30 Mark II with a Palmer P60 in it a few months ago. Glad to find there are at least a few other folks out there still keeping an engine like this running. Mine has around 150 hours on the meter.
The engine started an ran fine when I got it, though it started without choking which now leads me to believe it was tuned way too rich-- is that a reasonable assumption? Then one day after letting it sit for a while and a bit of rain and wet weather I couldn't get it started-- pulled the inline water/fuel separator and saw a bit of water in the gas, figured that must have been the problem so I drained until I didn't see any more water then filled up the tank. Still wouldn't start without a lot of cranking, so I pulled the carb to clean it, but it actually looked in pretty OK shape to begin with. Only after I put the carb back on did I check the plugs (stupid, I know) and they were totally fouled with black gunk. New plugs and it started up easy, but not again when it was cold... then I realized the choke cable would hardly move. Now I've adjusted the choke to fully close and it seems to start nicely. I'm still not 100% sure I have the main and idle jet tuned perfectly but they seem to be in a good place.
Now some remaining issues:
1) After all that cranking to get it started, I think I back flooded the exhaust and got a ton of seawater in the oil. It was overfilled and a thick grey color. Pumped out as much as I could (about 2.5L each time) and topped it off 3 times but the oil is still very grey. I don't think there's any humanly possible way to drain the oil from the oil pan on this boat, but how else can I really get this watery oil flushed out? Also the manual says there's an oil filter that should be replaced every 100 hrs but I can't find/access that either... any tips? And should I be worried about a bad head gasket/cracked block/etc that might be another cause of water in my oil? If it is just backed up from the exhaust, how is it getting down into the oil pan? Through the cylinders? valves?
2) I pulled my plugs after running the engine for a few minutes and they all looked pretty different. See the image below. What's going on here?
3) At low RPMs there's a very strong rhythmic sound like a washing machine off balance... is this maybe related to #2 as the cylinders don't look like they're firing evenly, or is it a sign of something more serious mechanically? Or nothing to worry about? It evens out at higher RPMs.
4) The engine hesitates quite a bit when accelerating from idle under load. Before I had the mixture tuned, I could kill the engine just by quickly throwing it from idle to WOT under load, now it just bogs down a bit and takes maybe 5-10 seconds to get up to speed. Is this a mixture thing, a float adjustment, dirt somewhere in the carb still, or something else?
5) I took the boat out on a perfectly calm day and checked my top speed with GPS-- I was seeing around 5.6-5.8kts max with the engine... is that all I should expect from the P60 on this boat or should I do more tuning? The bottom was just cleaned and painted a couple weeks ago, so I'm as streamlined as I'll ever be right now. The throttle pretty much stops responding after it's about halfway open.
Thanks,
Sam |
David Grosse
Advanced Member
Username: davidg
Post Number: 44
Registered: 11-2010
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 13, 2016 - 03:26 pm: |
|
Sam,
Congratulations on your purchase. Here are a few answers for you, starting at the end.
5. 5-6 knots is fast motoring, and I would not have expected much more. Do you know the hull speed of the boat?
4. Sounds like you need the carb rebuilt, and you also need to throttle up and down slowly. This is a tractor engine, not a performance engine.
3. There should not be any rhythmic action of the engine, it should idle smoothly, and has a heavy flywheel to keep it smooth.
2. The plugs do not look new, and it looks like there is some mixture deviation or stuff in the cylinders. Darker plug fairly normal, lighter plug very thin mixture, corrosion on plugs unusual.
1. It is nearly impossible to flush the grey emulsion from an engine, even if you drain it all out. Water emulsion seems to stick to metal, like gears and bearings. It is likely that your water in the oil was caused by backflow as you surmise and not by another failure. Did you look at, check, or smell the oil prior to your purchase?
I would be happy to chat with you about the engine at greater length if you want to give me a call.
Regards,
David Grosse
David's Yacht Service
SoCal
949-933-9613 |
Sam Kronick
Visitor
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 13, 2016 - 04:55 pm: |
|
Hi David, thanks for the fast reply!
5. LWL is 24.5ft, so hull speed should be around 6.7kts. I was hoping I'd get a bit closer to that under power but I'll take what I can get as long as it's not a sign something is wrong! This is my first keelboat so I don't really know what's normal.
4. The carb is a Zenith 61M with adjustable main jet. Is this the right rebuild kit for that from NAPA: http://www.napaonline.com/Catalog/CatalogItemDetail.aspx/Carburetor-Kit/_/R-CRB2 1565_0429638637 ? For $36 I guess it really can't hurt to see if this helps.
3. Hmm ok I'll keep an eye/ear on this and see if I can narrow it down. Maybe I'll give you a call and see if you can pin it down by sound.
2. The plugs were new just a couple days ago, but this is after a bunch of tinkering with the mixture, idle speed, etc. I ordered new Autolite 3116 plugs that should be here tomorrow and I'll see how they look now that I've got things running ok.
1. The oil looked a normal amber color when I bought it, can't say I smelled it though. I remember checking it too the first time the engine wouldn't start -- this was after maybe an hour or so of motoring around the marina over the past few weeks -- and it still looked good. Then I started cranking it too much with the seacock open and next time I checked it was grey... so good news that that is probably the issue, bad news is I'm the one who ruined the oil? Live and learn. Anything I can do now to mitigate the damage?
Good to know there's someone in the business of dealing with this engine not too far away (I'm up in the SF bay). I see that you even sell the notorious exhaust manifold-- the PO replaced the wet exhaust system on this boat because he said the old one rusted out, but I'm pretty sure the original manifold is still on there. What should I check for to make sure it's still in OK shape?
Sam |
Richard P Loud
Member
Username: shipmate
Post Number: 7
Registered: 01-2009
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 13, 2016 - 07:28 pm: |
|
Sam;
I have the same engine in my Columbia 29. Check each cylinder PSI this will show you the condition of the engine. Also the head gasket the kind you get at the parts store will not last in salt water, used copper I ordered mine from over seas, I'll post the info.
If your engine is raw water (sea water) cooled flush it after each use. Parts are available they are still made. I overhaul my engine 3 years ago. the only part that is not made is the wet exhaust manifold, you break / crack it your up the creek. |
David Grosse
Advanced Member
Username: davidg
Post Number: 45
Registered: 11-2010
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 13, 2016 - 08:00 pm: |
|
Sam,
I agree with Richard's advise about using a fresh water flush after each use. Salt water tends for deposit out in layers in your cooling system degrading its serviceability. It also tends to rust out the engine block and manifold. The manifold can rust from the outside where you can see it, but it can also rust out inside where you can't. Condition varies a lot based on use and idle time.
Manifolds have not been available to purchase until now, as there was no aftermarket support for Palmer or Thermo Electron. I have recently had them made new for David's Yacht Service to sell, and they are now available! (see www.BoatCityYachts.com)
Compression tests will tell you a lot about your engine's future life and current condition. You should be looking for 85 to 125 psi compression, and readings close together from cylinder to cylinder.
I tried the link you sent to NAPA, but it did not work on my phone.
As to your oil, my best advice is to keep flushing it and running the engine. Time is working against you.
Good luck with things and feel free to keep in touch.
David |
Sam Kronick
Visitor
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 13, 2016 - 08:21 pm: |
|
Hi Richard-- My engine is raw water cooled. How would you recommend flushing it after use?
Also it looks like David Grosse is now selling new castings of the exhaust manifold for $400: http://www.boatcityyachts.com/palmer%2060%20manifolds.htm Is that the part you're talking about? He also has copper head gaskets listed for $75. |
Eddie Ross
Senior Member
Username: eddie
Post Number: 334
Registered: 04-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, January 14, 2016 - 01:16 pm: |
|
Oil filter is an element type not a spin on. It is located near the forward (flywheel) end of engine high up on the port side. A 3/4 inch hex head bolt holds down the lid to the housing. Element part number is Fram C235, Baldwin P135, Napa 1153. Purolator 51153. |
David Grosse
Advanced Member
Username: davidg
Post Number: 46
Registered: 11-2010
| | Posted on Saturday, January 16, 2016 - 04:48 pm: |
|
Sam,
Fresh water flushing is a really good thing to do.
If you trace down your cooling water inlet, it should have a shut off valve at the thru hull. From that valve, a line will lead to your pump, and perhaps another return line from your thermostat. Palmer (and others) liked to recirculate the engine water to help warm up the engine, and so ran a recirculating line from the thermostat as well as a discharge line to the exhaust.
If you install a "T" or "Y" in the line from the sea water valve to the pump, you can put a short run of hose on one leg of the "T" and run the other leg to the pump as before. Put a shut off valve on the open end of the hose.
When you go boating, you open the raw water inlet valve as normal, and be sure the valve in the short hose is closed. When you return, fill a 2 gallon bucket with fresh water and put the short run of hose and valve in the fresh water bucket. Close the raw water sea cock and open the valve in the bucket. Start the engine and let it suck all the fresh water out of the bucket. Then, immediately turn off the engine, and close the fresh water valve.
You will have just completed a fresh water flush. When you are ready to go boating or run the engine again, simply open the raw water valve prior to starting the engine.
After starting the engine, verify that there is water flowing out the exhaust as normal. Do not run the engine if there is no water flow
If you have questions about this procedure, please feel free to give me a call.
David
949-933-9613 |
Richard P Loud
Member
Username: shipmate
Post Number: 8
Registered: 01-2009
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 20, 2016 - 09:14 pm: |
|
Good day Sam;
I installed a T fitting between the pump and the short block with the hose connection mounted in the cockpit. after I run the engine out of fuel, I then hook up the water, you just need to crack the valve the city water PSI is more then your engine cooling pump puts out. you also have to look at your exhaust system. my has a riser that goes up from the engine. this design allows the water flow overboard and not back into the exhaust system. when done put the cap back on the hose connection and your done.
have any questions call 757-719-8419 |
Norman Narmore
New member
Username: normann
Post Number: 1
Registered: 01-2016
| | Posted on Monday, February 08, 2016 - 06:42 pm: |
|
Hello gang, I just received the new manifold for my P60 that is being manufactured by David Grosse. The following is an excerpt from a note I sent him.
"All the castings appear to be first quality and even looked better than the pictures. I was delighted to find that the package included all the cover plates, bolts, gaskets and flanges need to make a complete bolt-on unit. I plan to assemble everything this week and put it in storage so it is ready to go when needed".
How wonderful that we no longer have to junk our beloved Palmer 60's just because the manifold failed.
I know David only through this forum and not affiliated with him in any way other than a very happy customer. |
|
|
|
|
