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Message |
    
ernie
Senior Member
Username: ernie
Post Number: 2032
Registered: 01-2002
| | Posted on Sunday, March 29, 2015 - 07:11 pm: | 
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This Sandow Stationary followed me home today.
I have an identical Detroit. It seems what they did to make it a stationary was change the tag, put it on some skids then add a flat belt pulley with a pillow block for support.
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ernie
Senior Member
Username: ernie
Post Number: 2034
Registered: 01-2002
| | Posted on Sunday, March 29, 2015 - 07:48 pm: |
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Here is the Detroit for comparison
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billschaller
Senior Member
Username: billschaller
Post Number: 615
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Monday, March 30, 2015 - 05:42 pm: |
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It really should have a governor if it is a factory stationary.
http://www.antiquengines.com/images/SandowBull.JPG |
ernie
Senior Member
Username: ernie
Post Number: 2035
Registered: 01-2002
| | Posted on Monday, March 30, 2015 - 06:01 pm: |
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Unless I am missing something the only ones with a governor were the fuel injected ones. If you look at this page
http://www.antiquengines.com/images/Sandow_Water_Light_Advert.JPG
there isn't a governor on either the pump engine or the generator engine. One would think the generator engine above all others would have had one.
I have a 2 and a 6 that are fuel injected and both have governors. This one doesn't have one and I see no place where it would have been.
Comments please |
ernie
Senior Member
Username: ernie
Post Number: 2036
Registered: 01-2002
| | Posted on Monday, March 30, 2015 - 06:04 pm: |
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When using the DMC throttling valve none was needed.
Bottom part of the page.
http://www.antiquengines.com/images/DMC_Sandow_Throttle_Valve_02.JPG |
billschaller
Senior Member
Username: billschaller
Post Number: 616
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Monday, March 30, 2015 - 07:05 pm: |
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Thanks, I see it now. Please put a load on it, and tell us how it well it works. I could see it working well on a pump or generator, but not as well on a saw rig, etc. I have a couple of the spittoon engines, but they are fuel injected. |
jim_parrott
Senior Member
Username: jim_parrott
Post Number: 77
Registered: 06-2009
| | Posted on Monday, March 30, 2015 - 10:16 pm: |
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Ernie,
Here is a pic of my Detroit Marine Stationary, believed to be a factory original setup.
Jim  |
ernie
Senior Member
Username: ernie
Post Number: 2037
Registered: 01-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 01, 2015 - 09:11 am: |
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Neat it is nice to see another complete original. I am going to carefully clean the skids mine is on to see if they say Sandow as it shows in the adds.
The high traction pulley on yours is neat too... |
jim_parrott
Senior Member
Username: jim_parrott
Post Number: 78
Registered: 06-2009
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 01, 2015 - 04:58 pm: |
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I will make a mixer inlet fitting to run it, the pulley need a little attention and everything else should be good as is. |
johnny
Senior Member
Username: johnny
Post Number: 507
Registered: 03-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 01, 2015 - 07:01 pm: |
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Nice engines everyone. I would love to have one of those little stationary Detroit's myself. Most of the Detroit's I have seen with mixers or carbs did not have a governor. Ernie you are correct about the fuel injected engines having a governor but they had different types. One type governor controlled the spark timing and air-intake valve. Second type of governor controlled a make and break type spark were the engine ran like a maytag and did not control the air-intake valve. The make and break example appeared to be only on the single flywheel engines water hopper and tank cooled. The companies seem to offer a lot of different options. One piece of original literature I have even shows a flyball governor option for your Detroit. Did you happen to see these photos of this stationary Detroit engine? It has the round 4 bolt inspection cover which is very rare. This engine was produced sometime around 1908 to 1910. First Detroit marine engines had a small pipe plug inspection hole only. Second had the round 4 inch inspection cover. Then from about 1911 to 1920 there was the square 4 inch inspection cover. I have seen a few of these stationary Detroit engines on a cast base like this but never with two flywheels.
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ernie
Senior Member
Username: ernie
Post Number: 2038
Registered: 01-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, April 02, 2015 - 07:26 am: |
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Interesting
Thanks for the comments/info
I suspect that just like today the customer does the final research and development. If they thought it would work they sent it out and let the customer confirm that it did or did NOT.
My single flywheel fuel injected 2 hp has a throttling governor as does my 6 hp single flywheel fuel injected.
I also have a set of plates to remove the water pump and exhaust manifold I guess to create a tank cooled engine with as little heat as possible going into the cooling tank. These are castings not just something someone made up.
I will get some pics of these and the 6 hp in the next few days. |
johnny
Senior Member
Username: johnny
Post Number: 509
Registered: 03-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, April 02, 2015 - 09:21 am: |
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Ernie, When you say throttling governor do mean the governor controls the air-intake valve which in turn controls the amount of fuel the injector injects? Governor also controls the spark timing? I would like to see the photos. |
ernie
Senior Member
Username: ernie
Post Number: 2039
Registered: 01-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, April 02, 2015 - 11:06 am: |
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Yes the governor controls the intake check valve to restrict air only. Timing is the usual lever which is a piece of copper tubing in the pics below and is NOT attached to the governor. |
ernie
Senior Member
Username: ernie
Post Number: 2040
Registered: 01-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, April 02, 2015 - 11:12 am: |
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Here are some pics.
I made the fuel injector out of junk box parts.
The engine runs great.
Once I can get into my shed (still have snow)I can get better pics for you.
This engine has a Detroit tag.
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johnny
Senior Member
Username: johnny
Post Number: 510
Registered: 03-2006
| | Posted on Friday, April 03, 2015 - 10:43 am: |
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Ernie that is pretty neat fuel reservoir & injector you made. That style of stationary Detroit with the governor arm came from the factory with a linkage that also controlled the timing. The linkage is only about 3 inches long and is attached to the flyweight and the timer contact collar. The linkage is what keeps the contact collar from rotating when the engine is running but the weight and linkage moves the contact collar. Your contact collar can not be keyed to the crankshaft because the governor ring has to move in order to work the governor arm for the air intake. Take another look and I think you will see that the timing is also being changed. If I'm wrong then I do apologize because I know that just when you think you have everything figured out something new different comes along. |
ernie
Senior Member
Username: ernie
Post Number: 2041
Registered: 01-2002
| | Posted on Friday, April 03, 2015 - 05:44 pm: |
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John,
Thanks for the nice comment on my junk box injector it was fun to make.
Another pic of my 2hp and pics of the 6hp I picked up today. At least I think it is a 6.
Both governors work the same.
When the governor linkage moves the timer ring moves for and aft on the crankshaft. Neither of these rotate either way at all. The governor ring with wedges on it rotates as well as moves for and aft when the link from the weight moves which causes the governor sleeve to move the governor arm going to the air valve. Both of these engines are identical except for size.
Quote from Richard Durgee "the reason we do this is that it constantly reminds us that as soon as we think we have it figured out something changes"
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ernie
Senior Member
Username: ernie
Post Number: 2042
Registered: 01-2002
| | Posted on Friday, April 03, 2015 - 06:09 pm: |
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Correction the governor wedge ring only moves diametrically/radially. This causes the governor ring and timer ring to move fore and aft. The timer ring must be loosely keyed to the crankshaft on these 2 engines as it won't move radially. |
johnny
Senior Member
Username: johnny
Post Number: 511
Registered: 03-2006
| | Posted on Friday, April 03, 2015 - 07:33 pm: |
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Ernie I told you wrong and you are right. Only the wedge ring moves radially and the governor groove collar and phenolic contactor ring is keyed to the crankshaft and does not move radially only back and forth on the crankshaft. You would think I would remember that as I had to make a new one of those steel governor rings with the grooves in it and the phenolic contactor ring for my 18hp twin as the old one was worn out. I put a new key way in it with my broach set. I'm 53 years old and it takes me two days to remember things sometimes. Wait until I get 60 or 70 I want be able to find my way home. So yes you are right the governor only controls the air-intake and in turn the fuel injection.
How many Detroit style engines do you have now stationary and marine? |
ernie
Senior Member
Username: ernie
Post Number: 2043
Registered: 01-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, April 04, 2015 - 06:31 am: |
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Johnny,
Be careful with the age thing
I am 63
Thanks for the update
I have 7 at the moment all swing timer except for the T and M marine
2 hp marine has tag
3 hp marine has tag
2 hp single flywheel stationary Fuel injected has tag
4 hp single flywheel stationary with mixer and no gov has tag
6 hp single flywheel stationary fuel injected
4 single flywheel T and M stationary tank cooled with no water pump, no muffler (factory exhaust and water plates) and checkvalve/mixer
And a T and M marine either 2, 3 or 4 hp with rotary timer double oiler and mixer. I don't have it yet so I am not sure exact;yu what it is. has tag |
ernie
Senior Member
Username: ernie
Post Number: 2045
Registered: 01-2002
| | Posted on Monday, April 06, 2015 - 10:35 am: |
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By the way the age comment should have had a chuckle chuckle after it. |
ernie
Senior Member
Username: ernie
Post Number: 2046
Registered: 01-2002
| | Posted on Monday, April 06, 2015 - 10:36 am: |
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Do you have any idea what the injector is on the big stationary?
Thanks
Ernie |
johnny
Senior Member
Username: johnny
Post Number: 512
Registered: 03-2006
| | Posted on Monday, April 06, 2015 - 12:31 pm: |
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Ernie,
If your talking about the engine in the last photo then that is the Detroit one piece fuel reservoir/injector. If your talking about the engine in the first photo's I believe is a Lavigne generator valve (Mixer).
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ernie
Senior Member
Username: ernie
Post Number: 2047
Registered: 01-2002
| | Posted on Monday, April 06, 2015 - 01:37 pm: |
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Johnny,
Thanks your knowledge on these old things is a big help.
I was asking about the one in the last pic.
Ernie |
johnny
Senior Member
Username: johnny
Post Number: 514
Registered: 03-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, April 09, 2015 - 07:03 am: |
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1911 advert for the Sandow in the first pics.
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johnny
Senior Member
Username: johnny
Post Number: 515
Registered: 03-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, April 09, 2015 - 07:17 am: |
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Here is the patent number for the Detroit fuel reservoir/injector on your larger Sandow in the last photo's (1,026,425). The appearance of the fuel reservoir was changed a few times after the original patent but still under the same patent number. Your reservoir with the acorn style top was the third and last version they made around 1911 to 1920. |
billschaller
Senior Member
Username: billschaller
Post Number: 617
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, April 09, 2015 - 08:24 am: |
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I picked this up last year, probably going to add a spittoon to it.
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billschaller
Senior Member
Username: billschaller
Post Number: 618
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, April 09, 2015 - 08:34 am: |
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But, then I found this, so maybe not.
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billschaller
Senior Member
Username: billschaller
Post Number: 619
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, April 09, 2015 - 08:48 am: |
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I still ended up with an extra spittoon, and they are not the same size.
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johnny
Senior Member
Username: johnny
Post Number: 516
Registered: 03-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, April 09, 2015 - 11:01 am: |
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Bill if I remember correctly the hopper cooled engines came in three sizes 2.5hp,4hp & 6hp. All the 2.5hp were fuel injection with make & break governor ignition just like a maytag washing machine engine. They even sound just like a maytag running. The make & break ignition and manual timer lever was what mainly controlled the speed even though there is a butter fly in the air intake that could be manually operated to help control the speed. The larger 4 & 6hp Sandow have a flyweight governor that controlled the air-intake also could control the speed by the manual timer lever. You may have a 4 or 6hp hopper cooled Sandow which I have never seen one in the 33 years that I have been playing with these old engines. Have you measured the flywheel O.D. and stroke and compared the two? |
