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B. Goss
Senior Member
Username: bgoss
Post Number: 212
Registered: 12-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, May 01, 2014 - 06:08 pm: | 
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Can you help to identify this one?
Interesting flywheel cut-outs and the exhaust manifold extends out quite far from the cylinders.
We would like to see what the ignition and water pump should look like.
Thanks. Blair
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RichardDurgee
Senior Member
Username: richarddurgee
Post Number: 3297
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, May 03, 2014 - 11:03 am: |
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Blair, What a very different and interesting old marine engine. After looking at it and researching with all my info it goes into the "Unknown list".
The Bow tie is a perfect description for the flywheel. when setting up a data base for old engines it was necessary to find common words to describe them and their parts so that a search would bring up all references. Flywheels are a large part of identification, holes in them are more definitive, I have used number,shape and relative size for descriptions. holes are round, tear, oval, square, heart, triangle etc, in this case I would list it as two Trapezoid ? I don't have a listing of any flywheels with that shape of cutout hole ??
The oiling system is another unique trait, it looks to have the common four line block feeding the crankshaft and two lines to the cylinders, I'm assuming that the engine had a mechanical oiler ? does the engine look to have supported an oiler on the front cylinder ? if so was it belt driven ? here is what I believe an anachronism, V-Belt pulleys on an engine this old, possibly a leather v type belt ?? the oiler system would date it at older than 1912,the skip link sprocket on output shaft would indicate a chain driven waterpump- that would date it even earlier, probably 1905 or earlier ??
The ignition I have no clue ???
Like all of the "Unknowns" I keep a look out for more info and review them systematically, the list is getting longer over the years with all my efforts !
Certainly could use some comments on this one !
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B. Goss
Senior Member
Username: bgoss
Post Number: 213
Registered: 12-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, May 04, 2014 - 04:47 pm: |
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Thanks Richard.
We think that the V-pulleys were likely add-ons at some later point. Likewise with the bicycle chain sprocket on the back (not skip link, but wish it was). If the chain sprocket was removed, there would be plenty of room for a suitable pump eccentric (the thrust bearing is still in there).
As for the lubrication system, just more questions. The way it is set up now is with grease fittings on each of those 4 lines to the crank. The bracket holding them is not as refined as the rest of the engine so this could also be an aftermarket fabrication. ??
A couple more photos of the odd intake manifold arrangement are included below.
Thanks again for trying to chase down as many of these 'unknowns' as you can, Richard.
Blair
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kevin lang
Advanced Member
Username: klanger
Post Number: 47
Registered: 03-2012
| | Posted on Monday, May 05, 2014 - 01:35 am: |
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Blair, What a great old engine.
My guesses to some of the details are, that it looks like a plunger type water pump was fitted with the eccentric to the crank.
Somebody at a later stage removed the grease cups and cobbled up the fitting with grease nipples and lines.
The elbow on the inlet was probably added to fit a different type of carby and get it to clear the exhaust manifold, and not sure what ignition it would've had, maybe a cuno type at the flywheel end, and then a chain driven mag fitted at sometime later.
I wonder how the water was fed to the front cylinder? external lines to the fittings on the grease nipple side of engine?
All in all a great find.
Kevin |
RichardDurgee
Senior Member
Username: richarddurgee
Post Number: 3303
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Monday, May 05, 2014 - 10:18 am: |
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Searching belt drives on marine engines I learned
something new ! Brennan The Engine mfgr in Syracuse drove their water pumps with a belt as far back as 1908 ? This is a 1911 ad the only photo of one that I can Find as yet. Also a California mfgr Gorham used belt drive 1910 era
Neither of these engines match your twin in above photos but puts a different light on the belt pulleys ?
1911
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B. Goss
Senior Member
Username: bgoss
Post Number: 214
Registered: 12-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 06, 2014 - 04:39 pm: |
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Thanks Kevin and Richard. You make a good point regarding the water feed to the front cylinder. I'll have to take out those fittings below the grease nipples and see if that would be the connection point. Blair |
B. Goss
Senior Member
Username: bgoss
Post Number: 221
Registered: 12-2007
| | Posted on Friday, February 20, 2015 - 10:01 pm: |
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Well, I think that we may have nailed down this unknown, thanks once again to Denis Rouleau's research.
http://buzzcoil.brinkster.net/MARINE/000index.html
I've read through these ads a number of times before but never noticed this flywheel and other features. Dad was doing some research this morning and put the pieces together.
Honest Injun Motor Co.
http://buzzcoil.brinkster.net/MARINE/pageh07.html
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And later, The Byers Limited
http://buzzcoil.brinkster.net/MARINE/pageb17.html
What do you think? |
J.B. Castagnos
Senior Member
Username: jb_castagnos
Post Number: 1028
Registered: 07-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, February 21, 2015 - 06:10 am: |
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Glad you ID'd it, shouldn't be too hard to fab up the parts. Does the water transfer through the exhaust manifold? |
B. Goss
Senior Member
Username: bgoss
Post Number: 222
Registered: 12-2007
| | Posted on Saturday, February 21, 2015 - 08:52 am: |
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JB - it looks like it should have a pipe connection between cylinders opposite the manifold. You're right, we should be able to reproduce the pump and timer with these pictures. Whittling out a pattern by the fireplace is good sport when it's -35 with the wind-chill outside.
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RichardDurgee
Senior Member
Username: richarddurgee
Post Number: 3520
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, February 21, 2015 - 10:05 am: |
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I also appreciate this post and Denis Rouleau's ID. I like the Bow tie description of the Flywheel, I had listed it in my data base as a two Trapazoid hole Flywheel and that's why it didn't come up on my initial search ? trap-e-zoid with the correct spelling brought up a bit of info !
The first history of the "Honest Injun" engine is
1904 "Miller Reversible Gasoline Engine Co. Founder M.J. Miller. Ad says U.S patent applied for ?
This article late 1906 mentions British Canadian Engineering Co. and a conglomerate of engine companies with M.J. Millers name in it ?
1906
By 1908 the name and address has changed, Sets of castings are available.
By 1909 another name and address change, ad mentions two-three port design.
1911 ad states origin of engine 1904, and credits
Fox Motors of Kentucky as the patent source. The actual name of the company at the 1904 date was Fox Reversible Gasoline Engine Co. the designer of the engine William Stephenson, he assigned the patent to Fox. US 1012288 A, fox held a later patent US 3257996 A that I believe was the Two - three port engine ?
This info was entered many years ago so if updates are found please post them - Thanks
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B. Goss
Senior Member
Username: bgoss
Post Number: 223
Registered: 12-2007
| | Posted on Saturday, February 21, 2015 - 08:17 pm: |
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Thanks Richard. |
