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| Anyone built their own engine from th... |
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Gregoryan
| | Posted on Thursday, September 04, 2003 - 07:13 am: | 
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I have always wanted to do this and have looked into patern making a bit. I would love to see pics of anything like this; styled off the early inboards. I lllovvvve big two-stroke singles.
Gregoryan. |
andrew
| | Posted on Thursday, September 04, 2003 - 07:53 am: |
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Gregoryan,
A very interesting question... I hope there is some response. I have looked for someone building engines from castings too and have not had much luck. A few people have built significant patterns to rebuild engines, including complicated cylinders.
I reprinted a book called HOW TO BUILD A THREE HORSEPOWER LAUNCH ENGINE, by E.W. Roberts (it is a four cycle). I have sold over a hundred copies and have always included a note asking the customer to contact me if they decide to build it. I spoke with about a half dozen buyers of the book who had a background in foundry, patternmaking, or machining who intended to build an engine, but as far as I know nobody has done it. It would seem that if a few capable people were interested, the job of patternmaking could be shared and patterns or parts exchanged.
Regards,
Andrew |
Richard Day
| | Posted on Thursday, September 04, 2003 - 09:03 am: |
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I think one of the most impressive efforts in this regard was the recent work of William Fiege. He not only made the patterns and core boxes for the Palmer model YT-2 cylinder but also the exhaust manifold. He had a real problem finding a foundry that could, much less would pour the iron for him. The group that did the YT-2 did not want to try repeat the effort I might add. He then made the patterns and cores for the Palmer NL cylinder.
The one foundry he thought could do that job failed and he finally found a small foundry in Pennsylvania that cast 5 cylinders for him. In both cases the quality of the finished castings was excellent. These hollow water jacketed castings are not only difficult to cast the patterns and core boxes have to be just right or else the resulting castings while appearing ok won't machine correctly with porous or thin sections. I would note that Bill spent a couple + retirement years on the project and the end result was remarkable. If anyone accomplishes a similar sucessful effort they deserve a lot of credit for a most difficult task. It can be done but its no easy task. I doubt Bill has any plans to repeat the process. |
J.B. Castagnos
| | Posted on Thursday, September 04, 2003 - 01:36 pm: |
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Nadler Foundry near here bought the Lockwood Ash patterns and made the engine under the Nadler name. The last engines were made around 1950, and the success rate on the two cylinder castings was about three out of ten. I don't know what kind of success L/A had when they were making them in the teens and twenties. One of the problems was obtaining the correct sand, the great lakes area seemed to be blessed with a good supply, that's why there were many succesful foundries there. The cores had to have wax strings imbedded to let the gasses escape, if these broke or clogged the gasses would build up and cause blow holes in the casting. The man in charge of the cores at Nadler had his own formula and wouldn't share it. If I were to attempt a casting I think I would try to leave the inside of the cylinder open and install a sleeve after. |
Richard Day
| | Posted on Thursday, September 04, 2003 - 07:49 pm: |
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Points well taken JB. Raynal Bolling, long time CEO of Palmer told me that the shift to detachable head cylinders was motivated by two principal objectives. 1st even with long time experienced foundry personal the yeild with the domed head cylinders was never high in any given run. 2nd when they tried to go from a 5" to a 5-1/2" bore cylinder with the dome head they had used for the previous 15 years they had to thin the jacket outer wall to permit useing the same crankcase bolt circle and the thin wall soon rusted through.
I heard recently Lunenburg foundry finally had to give up casting the famous Atlantic dome head cylinders as their younger foundry men didn't seem to have the knack of casting good cylinders.
It is not clear to me how one could cast a dome head and then use a sleeve for the piston wall. The top where the valve chambers are located would seem to present a problem. No matter I have no intention of attempting to follow in Bill Fiege's footsteps. There are very few who can duplicate his fantastic effort sucessfully. |
Richard Day
| | Posted on Thursday, September 04, 2003 - 10:09 pm: |
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For reason beyond my understanding I am unable to answer any e-mail messages. I will be out of town from 7 to 24 Sept. Hope anyone trying to reach me will understand that even if I get my send e-mail repaired I will still not be able to answer prior to 24 Sept. Andrew I am taking advantage of this page to alert all interested that it is not lack of interest it is lack of knowledge of what makes these boxes tick. |
Richard Day
| | Posted on Thursday, September 04, 2003 - 10:59 pm: |
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Would you believe it. In a last desparete call the server operator admitted the reason I could not send e-mails was because they had put new computers on line and not all of them recognized the customers addresses. I am back in business after 7 hours of calls and tests. The new shift must have come on as the man immeadiatly knew the problem was his and he transferred me to a working server. Such is life. |
larry from MD.
| | Posted on Friday, September 05, 2003 - 03:24 pm: |
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Dick you should tell everyone where to see those engines.They will be at the Arcadia show in MD on sept. 13/14 right. |
Richard Day
| | Posted on Friday, September 05, 2003 - 09:07 pm: |
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Larry you are right. The YT-2 will be there. Not sure the NL-1 will however. Bill Fiege will be there and he always enjoys talking to people interested in machine work. I expect Bill will be there 13/14 possibly 12. Don't really know. |
richarddurgee
| | Posted on Friday, September 05, 2003 - 09:45 pm: |
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Dick
this is interesting, the NL1 that I got a few years back may have one of these new cylinder castings on it, is there a way to distinguish it
from a Palmer factory cylinder??
What is difference in old timer cover and new style one on NL1 ?? |
Richard Day
| | Posted on Saturday, September 06, 2003 - 12:05 pm: |
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Dick, As far as I know Andrew has two. I have one and Bill has two. There were no distinguishing foundry marks on original Palmer casting NL, NR, ZR and other early engines. Of course the model letter is generaly found on all the cylinder castind and many other parts including forgings. When they sold the foundry to an ex employee he developed a drinking problem as I understand it and the work became so poor that they severed all connection with their original foundry. From 1937 on their castings were done for the most part by Manufacturers Foundry Co, New Britian, CT. Their logo will be found on many ZR cylinders and heads. It is a triangle around the letters MFco. There is generally a casting date as well. Some original Palmer castings have dates but not all. I don't know how they kept track of which casting to machine next as most sat out in the weather for some months before machining to reduce the stresses in the castings.
I know of four versions of the covers for the NR and NL. The spark plug covers are found with either 7/8 18thread or 18 MM spark plug threads. I know there has to be another cover for 1/2" NPT spark plugs because all Palmer spark plgs on all models prior to 1922 according to their 1922 catalog were 1/2" NPT. "Model T Ford plugs" they are typically called today.
I should add that many of the original covers will be found with bushings to take more modern plugs than the 7/8" 18 THD or even the 18MM plugs.
I try to remove the bushings and put in the original plug that the cover is bored for. Not that it makes any difference as far as engine operation. I just try to put the engine back to the way it was made.
I have never actually seen one of those covers but know they must be around in engines such as the 1914 NL-3 owned by the Antique Boat Museum.
The exhaust covers will be found in two versions. In both versions the top portion appears the same but in one version the cover projects into the exhaust valve port opening about an inch in others it is only as thick as the external apperance of the cover. Best I can do on this one. |
Tom Stranko
| | Posted on Monday, September 08, 2003 - 07:01 pm: |
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The July 2003 issue of GAS ENGINE MAGAZINE had a great article on P28 about a guy who restored 2 engines (not marine) and had to fabricate from steel plate, tubing, etc. a welded head and other parts. I was thinking that an engine with a simple iron cylinder casting with an applied copper water jacket, a fabricated crankcase and a
4 cycle head fabricated of steel would not be too far beyond the reach of some of our more creative members. I need a head for my 2 cylinder
"Frontier" inboard and that GEM article crystalized a lot of the ideas I had about how to go about it. |
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