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Message |
    
Andrew Menkart
Moderator
Username: andrew
Post Number: 1131
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, October 01, 2011 - 11:12 am: | 
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The following came in by email. I will ask William(Bill) Minehane to post any additional information in the next thread. Hopefully someone can help him out.
quote:The engine that I am sending photos of, I obtained recently whilst doing a Voluntary Assignment at the Dockyard , Port Moresby , Papua New Guinea and have had it transported by ship from Port Moresby to Townsville.
I have joined approx 7/8 Forums – these ranging from the UK, Netherlands, USA and Australia- so far I have had no return of any information. I have contacted English Speaking Newspapers in Turin, Italy.- [email protected] and a Museum in Turin all say that apart from it NOT being a car engine they cannot help.
Diatto and A Clement were amalgamated during the period of 1905 and 1909, so this engine must be from that period.
The engine is a MOTORE TORINO DNF 30 Diatto A.Clement .
In most or all Forums a number of people are saying that it must be a “old boat engine” - I am writing to you in the hope that you may or may not be able to discredit this line of thought – I myself think it must be a “stationary engine” - whatever it was used for in Port Moresby, New Guinea I wonder and again, why an Italian engine – it is in good condition as it was found inside a shop on an toilet block approx 40 years ago and until I was given it was a show piece in Truck and Machinery Shop in Port Moresby.
I am getting desperate for information as I have spent days/weeks since coming back from PNG trying any avenue that may or may not be able to reply with something positive.
Sorry to trouble you but as I said I am desperate for information.
Thanking you
William(Bill) Minehane
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William Minehane
Member
Username: bmine
Post Number: 6
Registered: 10-2009
| | Posted on Saturday, October 01, 2011 - 04:49 pm: |
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Further to the above the brass cock near the spark plug, this is a fuel priming cock.
I myself did not think that it was a marine engine but quite a number of people in the Forums that i am in, thought so. My opinion is that it is a stationary engine but, how did it drive? from the fly wheel? or is there a missing gear between the fly wheel and the starting handle.
I have asked many sources how did this engine get to PNG , what was it used for.
The engine was shipped from Port Moresby to Townsville and is now awaiting my pickup.
Bill |
William Minehane
Member
Username: bmine
Post Number: 7
Registered: 10-2009
| | Posted on Saturday, October 01, 2011 - 04:57 pm: |
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The engine was actually found on the top of a shop toilet (internal) about 40 years ago and then was made a show piece in the Moresby Truck & Tractor Shop - I was given it by the Owner who has been a friend for years. |
Scott Noseworthy
Senior Member
Username: scott_n
Post Number: 205
Registered: 02-2008
| | Posted on Monday, October 03, 2011 - 07:59 am: |
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the round ball like water jacket is used to build water presser I bet it is a pumping engine and if marine a fire pump engine.I have a Friend orchard spraying engine with the same type ball. |
David Stott
Advanced Member
Username: david_stott
Post Number: 42
Registered: 06-2005
| | Posted on Monday, October 03, 2011 - 07:54 pm: |
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I dont think it would drive a belt off the flywheel itself as there is very little clearance between the base plate. Maybe it could drive a belt off the small boss on the front of the flywheel. A belt drive to a lighting plant or water pump would seem to be the only way it could drive something. Lack of corrosion seems to suggest sheltered use and not marine.
The copper pipe with the valve runs down to what looks like the original carburettor. A different carby from a lawn mower or similar has been added. |
William Minehane
Member
Username: bmine
Post Number: 9
Registered: 10-2009
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 04, 2011 - 02:50 am: |
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Thanks Scott for your reply - I am accepting all suggestions but am leaving the final verdict to the experts --- hoping that something will come from Italy soon
Bill |
William Minehane
Member
Username: bmine
Post Number: 10
Registered: 10-2009
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 04, 2011 - 03:10 am: |
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David Scott - thank you - everything you have said has been discussed on other Forums - I am actually active on 7/8 forums - somebody has even said that maybe a sprocket is missing as the clearance under the fly wheel, is small.
As to lack of corrosion I believe that it was found on an inner toilet block of Moresby Truck and Tractor Shop approx 30/40 years ago and has been a centre piece in the shop until it was given to me by the Owner. It is now in storage in Townsville, until I make my second trip North(1300klms)to pick it up - it was still in the container and could not be released before I had to come South.
Yes it does appear to have the original carbe and float bowl and yes it does appear to be fitted with an amal carbe - I only have the 5 photos that I took whilst doing my Voluntary Assignment in Port Moresby. I thought the copper pipe with the valve on was connected to the cooling water - the cross over (1 inch) pipe was put across at that angle to avoid damage - I took it to be that anyway.
Due to the fact that it looks like my second assignment to PNG has been delayed, I might try to pick up the engine in November now - that will help to get the serial and maybe help further in identification - serial number etc on the Bosch mage.
Please keep up the correspondence - the more the merrier.
Bill |
William Minehane
Member
Username: bmine
Post Number: 11
Registered: 10-2009
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 04, 2011 - 05:00 am: |
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David Stott - sorry about putting Scott - i was thinking of a friend of mine called, David Scott
Bill |
William Minehane
Member
Username: bmine
Post Number: 12
Registered: 10-2009
| | Posted on Thursday, October 06, 2011 - 11:08 pm: |
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Scott Noseworthy - if you read my latest message you may see that I am now asking questions of the what appears to be 2 sets of pipes inlets and outlets - I have written up the story of the engine for publication but am questioning these 2 small pipes(one under the brass tag and the other on the top above the flywheel - i ask you please if you can get more details from your friend that has the orchid pump along with photos which hopefully you can put on this site for comparison.
Thanks
Bill |
Scott Noseworthy
Senior Member
Username: scott_n
Post Number: 206
Registered: 02-2008
| | Posted on Friday, October 07, 2011 - 04:51 pm: |
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friend is the name of the orchid spraer pump that I have will try to post picturs |
Scott Noseworthy
Senior Member
Username: scott_n
Post Number: 207
Registered: 02-2008
| | Posted on Friday, October 07, 2011 - 05:05 pm: |
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Note the water pump is the part you are missing the two black inlet and outlet valaes may be check valves and the bress hex with a small hole I bet is a puresser relef valve please post a pictur of just the tag.and you mite try the smoke stack furom |
William Minehane
Member
Username: bmine
Post Number: 13
Registered: 10-2009
| | Posted on Friday, October 07, 2011 - 09:27 pm: |
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Thank you Scott - as you can see this engine is really taking up a lot of time in my trying to find out answers and i am trying to analyse all questions and answers. Am enclosing the photos of top of the block etc
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William Minehane
Member
Username: bmine
Post Number: 15
Registered: 10-2009
| | Posted on Saturday, November 26, 2011 - 01:55 am: |
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The engine is now home - the villiers carbe is off and the original fuel vapor line is now fitted - thank goodness it was all there
Trying t get some photos on the site to show.
Bill |
Andrew Menkart
Moderator
Username: andrew
Post Number: 1138
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, November 27, 2011 - 03:13 pm: |
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more from Bill Minehane....
quote:I have now just completed another round trip Pomona to Townsville – 2 trips now with a total of 5600 klms – the engine is now with my collection and in the shed.
I have been in contact now with 3 Museums etc in the UK as well as the one in Turin and am no closer to finding out anything.
The villiers carbe as fitted has now been removed and the original fuel/vapor line has been reconnected – thankfully it was all still there – I have never had anything to do with fuel vapor lines nor with any fuel line being of 1 inch diameter – I original thought that this 1 inch line was a water cooling line and with this thought I was always concerned about the usage of the 2 black lines (fwd and aft) these are the cooling lines.
The spark plug is a 5M Champion , made in Australia until I believe 1950.
The oiler is a NATHAN , made in New York.
The clearance under the flywheel is virtually nothing and a belt could not be placed under it – how and where was the drive taken from.
Casted into the crankcase is also the letters DNF – same as in the brass tag.
Thanking you
Bill Minehane
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William Minehane
Member
Username: bmine
Post Number: 16
Registered: 10-2009
| | Posted on Sunday, November 27, 2011 - 04:10 pm: |
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Thank you - Peter - I tried many times but could not get the photo down to 150.
I appreciate your help.
Bill |
William Minehane
Member
Username: bmine
Post Number: 17
Registered: 10-2009
| | Posted on Thursday, December 01, 2011 - 03:54 pm: |
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Sorry Andrew- I have so many photos and words on Forums that I got this mixed up.
To All - it was Andrew that I wished to Thank , not Peter this time.
Bill |
William Minehane
Member
Username: bmine
Post Number: 24
Registered: 10-2009
| | Posted on Friday, December 16, 2011 - 10:17 pm: |
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Hi I am submitting a photo of the inner section of the fuel/vapor system - the nozzle has the figure 10 stamped on it.
Bill |
William Minehane
Member
Username: bmine
Post Number: 25
Registered: 10-2009
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 21, 2011 - 03:36 pm: |
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Hi - if one looks at the photo of the fuel system as posted on the 27th Nov you will see the entire fuel system - the float and primer, the fuel shut off valve, the constant throttle and the mixture screw.
It was put to me on another site that this engine is "constant control" and NOT controlled through a GOVERNOR - what type of engine is such controlled - the same site suggested "marine" - has anybody got any ideas about this.
Bill |
Scott Noseworthy
Senior Member
Username: scott_n
Post Number: 211
Registered: 02-2008
| | Posted on Thursday, December 22, 2011 - 07:34 am: |
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I'm still think you still have some kind of water pump if it were a marine drive engine it would have a bigger output shaft |
William Minehane
Member
Username: bmine
Post Number: 26
Registered: 10-2009
| | Posted on Thursday, December 22, 2011 - 03:35 pm: |
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Thank you Scott - whatever it was used for, the drive not being governed must have some influence on it .
Bill |
William Minehane
Member
Username: bmine
Post Number: 28
Registered: 10-2009
| | Posted on Saturday, December 31, 2011 - 12:51 am: |
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In response to previous questions of where the drive from this engine took place , I am submitting 2 photos of two "grub screw" holes in the shaft from the flywheel to to starting handle.
The first one is on the outer side of the intermediate bearing and the other on the inner side. A close up of the inner hole shows witness marks (no tread, just a locator hole.
The drive no doubt came from the use of one or both of these grub screw location holes.
Bill
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William Minehane
Member
Username: bmine
Post Number: 29
Registered: 10-2009
| | Posted on Friday, January 13, 2012 - 10:23 pm: |
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On scratching a white mark on the bolted on boss to the flywheel, a threaded hole was seen - this hole was cleaned out by using a 3/8 plug tap.
In addition to the above photos, submitted on the 31st December 2011, i will again submit another 2 photos -this in total makes 2 locator holes and one threaded hole in the add on shaft.
The threaded section now shows that this could very well be where a sprocket or gear section may have been added at some time for the drive section - no clearance is under the flywheel so no belt drive from there.
Still seeking information.
Bill
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William Minehane
Member
Username: bmine
Post Number: 30
Registered: 10-2009
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 24, 2012 - 12:10 am: |
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Since my last mail I am once again back in PNG doing another Voluntary Assignment.
I submit also an article that has been placed o another forum for you to consider.
The engine could very well have come from Clement Motor Co. Coventry. Warwickshire UK.
This was the reason why Adolphe Clement changed his name to Gustaus Adolphe Clement- he sold the Company that bore his name.
The Swift Car was first built using a thermo one cylinder engine supplied by Clement.
http://wwwgracesguide.co.uk./clement
On getting the above I wrote back to the Coventry Museum (last wrote September 2011) and submitted the above - they wrote back the following
"we do believe that a number of Clement cars were made In Coventry through Swift Motor Co as "all British Clement models" from roughly 1908 to 1914.
We only hold later Clement -Talbot manuals in our Tec Library."
They did ask for more information
Any would be welcome
Bill |
William Minehane
Advanced Member
Username: bmine
Post Number: 31
Registered: 10-2009
| | Posted on Thursday, February 16, 2012 - 12:06 am: |
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I have had an article and photos published in the Feb/March edition of the The Old Machinery magazine in Australia and due to this I have had a few replies.
It turns out that although the engine was found on the top of a toilet block at the Moresby Truck and Tractor it certainly was not 40 years ago as I have stated - a person in Sydney, Australia bought this engine in 1979 and sold it in 1997 - to whom he cannot recall so I am still asking how and why it went to Papua New Guinea. I still do not know what it was used for? Why take an old engine from Sydney to Port Moresby and then put in a Truck Shop, firstly hidden and then on display.
I am including the photo of the engine as sold in 1997 - I was also told he put the Villiers carbe on it and had it running. |
William Minehane
Advanced Member
Username: bmine
Post Number: 32
Registered: 10-2009
| | Posted on Thursday, February 16, 2012 - 12:25 am: |
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William Minehane
Advanced Member
Username: bmine
Post Number: 33
Registered: 10-2009
| | Posted on Saturday, February 25, 2012 - 07:41 pm: |
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The story and photos are now going to be published in the Stationary Engine Magazine.UK after I get back to Australia - they want flywheel diameter along with other measurements such as height, width and length.
Bill |
William Minehane
Advanced Member
Username: bmine
Post Number: 34
Registered: 10-2009
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 03, 2012 - 04:56 am: |
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All measurements of the engine have been sent and now I await the date of publication.
Yesterday I was given an address of a collector in Italy, I sent mail last night and this morning received mail back. He said that he knew of 2 other similar or same engines with collectors in Italy.
I have asked if he can give more information about the engine such as use of, magneto, oiler and spark plug - those fitted are now original.
I took the engine to a "meet" at a town called Kilkivan - they hold an annual horse trail ride - this ride has been closed for the past 2 years due to "horse disease" and flooding - in the past they had over 1000 horse - this year only 550 horses.
The Secretary of my Club was surprised at the size, he thought it was much bigger than it was - size of flywheel s only 280mm and the bore size 90mm whilst the top section which includes the cooling section is 130mm - it weighs 80/100 kg - small but heavy.
Bill |
William Minehane
Advanced Member
Username: bmine
Post Number: 35
Registered: 10-2009
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 04, 2012 - 05:27 am: |
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In the reply I was told that of the 2 that he knew about , one he had never seen but from all reports it was like mine , the other does not have the bed plate and is fitted with an alternate fuel supply and magneto.
You can see in these photos as submitted this engine has another flywheel or drive section fitted.
Bill  |
