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| When did Palmer Bros. start using the... |
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Andrew Menkart
Moderator
Username: andrew
Post Number: 1008
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, July 05, 2009 - 08:52 pm: | 
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I am posting this for Dick Day.
When did Palmer Bros. start their engine dating system using the last two digits of the serial number to represent the year of manufacture?
By Richard A. Day Jr. copy write retained 05-17-2009
Confusion regarding when Palmer Bros. started their engine dating system using the last two digits of the serial has been a long standing question for some people. Some believe it started in 1895 when the engine company produced 100 engines that first year. Long standing company lore had been that was true. In fact as late as the 1960s long time company employees believed that was correct.
Raynal Bolling, Palmer Bros employee 1934-1947 and CEO of the successor company “The Palmer Engine Co” from 1947 to 1968 and other the long time employees believed it to be so. I did not question the validity of the belief at first but after collecting Palmer serial numbers over the last nearly 50 years it is now obvious they did not start this practice until about 1908.
Back about 1990 in talking with Raynal Bolling I pointed out the early serial numbers were not turning up prior to 1908 with any logical sequence. The earliest authentic serial number which also fortunately had clear documentation in the original bill of sale to back it up is 050809. 1909.
There are a number of serial numbers which seem to follow no identifiable pattern. For example B 436-02,
B 873-08, C-221-02, DS 323 These engine models for the most part were in production from 1900 to about 1915. By 1912 Palmer advertising claimed they had shipped over 40,000 engines. I have well over 200 serial numbers which fit the post 1909 pattern right up to the end of the company in 1971
If they had shipped 40,000 engines by 1912 why is 050809 the first serial number fitting the last two digit dating scheme? One would conclude it should have had a serial number in the 20,000 to 30,000 bracket. None of the following years serial numbers seem to stray from the pattern starting about 1909. The numbers also are simply one up off the production line without regard to model. This latter point was explained to me by Henry Zerbarini, Palmer employee from 1922-1968. Henry said his job was in engine final test and he was the man who stamped the serial number and date after an engine passed final test.
In the over 200 Palmer serial numbers collected to date all serial numbers with one or two exceptions which appear to be factory marking errors follow the 1909 sequence right up to the end of production in 1971. A change did take place some time in 1965/66 to only the last digit to represent the year the engine was ready to ship.
When I presented my findings to Raynal Bolling about 1990 he agreed with me the last two digit serial number dating system could not have started in 1895 or even much prior to 1909.
I believe until some explanation for Palmer engine serial numbers prior to 1909 turns up there is no point in assuming the letter/number sequences are production year dates. They may well be but how one can prove that point I have not figured out. I do know of one model B with 1899 stamped on the end of the crankshaft. The current owner saw the documentation which authenticated the date for that engine.
In my opinion the best way to assign a probable production year on Palmer engines without verifiable serial numbers are such items as a bill of sale, or particular features which were changed over the production life of the engine model. But be careful the Palmer Model C came out in 1900 with a hot head until 1903 when it was given a water cooled head like the Models D and E. It should be noted 050809 is a model C but it has a factory hot head with brass cap. This suggests one needs to be careful in making assumptions based on seemingly minor changes.
The Palmer model YT-1 is very popular with collectors. From 1922 until about 1924 the spark plug was slanted aft about 45 degrees. With the release of the YT-2 in 1924 the spark plugs had to be vertical to avoid mutual interference. There are 4 known serial numbered YT-1 prior to 1924 and 32 known serial numbered YT-1 engines post 1924. These engines cover the years 1922-1948. 1948 was also the end of production of the YT-1. There are a few known YT-1 but they have no serial number tag. There are also a few known serial number tags but regrettably no engines attached.
I hope this note gives the reader my understanding regarding dating Palmer engines from their post 1909 serial numbers. Prior to 1909 I have no idea what system if any was in use regarding dating.
by Dick Day |
MV Palmer
Visitor
| | Posted on Thursday, March 03, 2011 - 05:19 pm: |
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For the past 5 years I have been restoring a 30 ft caravel. It came out of the Lucas yard in Hobart Tasmania (around 1900) with the name Palmer. Built for a local businessman named Webster it was used to demonstrate a Palmer engine. Still in service today it is powered by a 2 cylinder diesel (18 hp). I am interested to know if there may be any way to determine what engine was originally fitted. It was reported to be a 2 cylinder, 4 cycle of 6 to 8 hp and weighed approximately 300 lb. |
RichardDurgee
Senior Member
Username: richarddurgee
Post Number: 2602
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, March 05, 2011 - 02:18 pm: |
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Dick
I appreciate the years and work it took to be able to see the structure of Palmer Serial dating system . Thanks for the posting !
This old Palmer C is one I resurrected from a basket case years ago, all parts were original as well as the Palmer green paint on the inside hub of crankshaft and crankcase.
with no tag or serial number I found that the tombstone crankcase side covers were first used 1904-05, the hot head was finally discontinued in 1909, and its bronze connecting rod was also discontinued in 1909 so I have dated it 1905-09 ?
when took head off and cleaned top of the block there is a clearly stamped 580H , seems this fits right in with the pre 1909 Palmers ?
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RichardDurgee
Senior Member
Username: richarddurgee
Post Number: 2603
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, March 05, 2011 - 03:19 pm: |
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MV Palmer
This is from 1901-02 Palmer catalog
this is the larger 12 Hp model G (only photo of this engine I can find right now) but lets you know what they looked like ?
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Richard A. Day Jr.
Senior Member
Username: richardday
Post Number: 941
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, March 05, 2011 - 05:04 pm: |
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For MV Palmer. According to my records a picture of the model L 4 stroke Palmer ca 1907 was put on this page 01-11-2009 but here it is again. It was the two cylinder model L2 8 HSP, Weighed 300 lbs Prop size 18" had built in reverse gear. Engine had an atmospheric intake valve Flywheel DIA. 15". There was also a 2 cylinder four stroke side valve Model K 16 HSP only it weighed 2000 lbs. without reverse gear. Had 24" flywheel.  |
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