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Message |
    
Robert
Senior Member
Username: robert
Post Number: 259
Registered: 07-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, March 14, 2009 - 01:38 pm: | 
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Has there been any further collation of the data, or a definitive answer to to whether the date of manufacture is included in the serial number, and if so, where? |
Robert
Senior Member
Username: robert
Post Number: 263
Registered: 07-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 18, 2009 - 02:49 am: |
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Anybody?? |
Frank Petran
New member
Username: frank_petran
Post Number: 1
Registered: 05-2009
| | Posted on Sunday, May 10, 2009 - 04:00 pm: |
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Robert,
Just my thouoght. As I am new to this old marine engine thing I purchased a Gray at a farm machinery get-together The numbers stamped on the machined boss are 145R and below is the serial number I think, 12927. Could 12 be the year, 9 the month and 27 the day. The engine came with a Krice carburetor so the 12 would fit in for the year as the Krice lit. said it was pattened in 1913 Frank |
Robert
Senior Member
Username: robert
Post Number: 274
Registered: 07-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, May 10, 2009 - 05:01 pm: |
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Frank, so we could hypothesize that 145 was the number of that type ("R") of engine produced that year, and the 12927 was the date? Or could it be 14.5 hp as per Joe Rolfe's post: "5-1/2U26110"??
Here is the main thread on this subject: http://www.oldmarineengine.com/discus/messages/3431/1348.html and the second serial number list compiled by Richard: http://www.oldmarineengine.com/history/Gray/gray_serial_2.html
Taken with the 14T4067 plate I just received (Thanks again Derek), from a 14hp twin, it is looking very much like the numbers before the model letter refer to the horsepower, at least in some cases.
(Andrew, could you graft this thread into the earlier one I linked to above, and then delete this one? I should have posted there in the first place, sorry.) |
RichardDurgee
Senior Member
Username: richarddurgee
Post Number: 2094
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, May 10, 2009 - 05:20 pm: |
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Gray Model "R" mfgrd 1912, bore and stroke will tell Hp !
** |
Robert
Senior Member
Username: robert
Post Number: 276
Registered: 07-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, May 10, 2009 - 05:51 pm: |
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Frank, is your engine a twin or a single? |
Frank Petran
New member
Username: frank_petran
Post Number: 3
Registered: 05-2009
| | Posted on Sunday, May 10, 2009 - 07:55 pm: |
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Robert,
The engine is a single cylinder. The bore and stroke are about 4 inches each. I haven't taken the engine apart so the measurenents a rough. A stick through the plug hole and a depth gauge (a piece of wire) throught the oiler hole. Frank |
Robert
Senior Member
Username: robert
Post Number: 277
Registered: 07-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, May 10, 2009 - 09:57 pm: |
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Definitely not 14.5hp then! Still, it must be more than a coincidence that the numbers before the letter so often match the HP rating...or not? |
RichardDurgee
Senior Member
Username: richarddurgee
Post Number: 2095
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, May 10, 2009 - 10:48 pm: |
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Gray Spec sheet 1913
** |
RichardDurgee
Senior Member
Username: richarddurgee
Post Number: 2096
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, May 10, 2009 - 11:15 pm: |
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Gray info in archives, This needs updating and refining but is basically accurate !
http://www.oldmarineengine.com/discus/messages/3431/1255.html#POST5366
** |
Frank Petran
Member
Username: frank_petran
Post Number: 5
Registered: 05-2009
| | Posted on Monday, May 11, 2009 - 07:43 pm: |
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Richard,
Many thanks, I'll look in the morning and clean the boss where the numbering is to make sure of what I read. I'm in the middle of cutting, shapping and sanding the maple trim boards for my friends 1858 Mercury woody station wagon so there is dust all over.
Thanks again,
Frank |
Frank Petran
Member
Username: frank_petran
Post Number: 6
Registered: 05-2009
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 12, 2009 - 05:52 pm: |
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I checked to make sure my eyesight is still operating. There is a "l" in front of the 4.5R. It is in the same font that the "l" is in the serial number. Thanks for the spec sheet. Every thing seem to check out. Just need a flywheel and coil (buzz Box).
Thanks Again, Frank |
Frank Petran
Member
Username: frank_petran
Post Number: 7
Registered: 05-2009
| | Posted on Friday, May 15, 2009 - 08:03 am: |
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I read somewhere that Gray produced about 7,000 engines a year for one year. Assuming that they operated on a 5 day week that would mean that the daily production would be about 27 engines a day (7000 / 260). Without a secondary code character of some type it is almost impossible to make the date of manufacture the serial mumber. Even if you made a secondary code character that number or letter would have to have a value of 27 or greater (27...40 or A...ZZ). as good manufacturing practice would didtate that one would produce mainly one model each day or week. I have no idea of the size of the workforce that was employed at that time but to produce one or two engines of each type each day would require a large workforce with a lot of wasted time and energy. My serial number 12927 could just mean that it is the actual 12,927 engine built of that size. Frank |
Frank Petran
Member
Username: frank_petran
Post Number: 8
Registered: 05-2009
| | Posted on Saturday, May 16, 2009 - 05:32 pm: |
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After some thought my engine could be the 927 of 4.5R's for the year 1912 or 927 of all 4.5R's built Frank |
RichardDurgee
Senior Member
Username: richarddurgee
Post Number: 2098
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, May 16, 2009 - 08:07 pm: |
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As to the 7000 engs produced in one year I would be very interested in the source and the exact year ? Keep in mind that these serial numbers we sorted out in 2002 pertained only to the two cycle engs and Gray ceased producing two strokers in 1927 but they also mfgrd 4 cycle engines for many of those years up to 1927 ??
* |
Frank Petran
Member
Username: frank_petran
Post Number: 9
Registered: 05-2009
| | Posted on Saturday, May 16, 2009 - 09:41 pm: |
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I googled Gray Marine and one of the first sites was "A Brief History of Gray Marine Motor Company".
http://gasengine.farmcollector.com/Farm-Shows/A-BRIEF-HISTORY-OF-THE-GRAY-MARINE -MOTOR-COMPANY.aspx The number was on page 2,The year was 1909 |
Frank Petran
Member
Username: frank_petran
Post Number: 11
Registered: 05-2009
| | Posted on Monday, May 18, 2009 - 08:28 pm: |
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Back working on my 4.5R. As this engine is a stationary model it has gear type water pump. The houseing, gears are OK. What isn't is the shaft. I can have another one made up but before that I need to know if the bushing that holds the lower end of the shaft and gear assembly is poured babbit or a bronze oil bushing. This engine is poured babbit and hole is not centered in the casting. I cleaned up the pump flange and the engine flange. I dry fitted the pump with the shaft and it looks like I have to either make a thick gasket for the matting flanges, pour a new babbit bushing or install a oil bushing. It looks like a 1/2 by 3/4 bushing. I can't make out the pump manufacture as some of the lettering is not readable. It starts as M L OBER??RFE? Brass Co, Syacuse. Casting number is 041/2. Any correlation with engine size? As the gear tappered pin was sheared almost flush with the shaft the gear came off with to much of a problem I plan to drill and tap the gear and use a SS set screw to hold it in place. My ultimate goal is to replace the gear drive pump with a plunger type but for now I sill am in need of a flywheel and spacer along with a ignition source. Any help with the water pump question and any source for the flywheel would be great. Thanks |
Keith Cutler
New member
Username: boatdrinks
Post Number: 1
Registered: 08-2009
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 12, 2009 - 08:53 pm: |
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I'm trying to get my father some information on an old Gray Marine engine. It's a 2 cylinder 2 cycle with the number 02143 stamped into the flywheel and 17R over top of 11110 on the jug above the intake. It has a taper shaft and nut on the flywheel and 3 grease cups for the bearings. The water pump is in the front and runs off the timer shaft. There are two gears between the flywheel and the gear that turns the timer shaft. Any idea what year this engine would be and any info on how you would turn it over to start it? |
Robert
Senior Member
Username: robert
Post Number: 287
Registered: 07-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 12, 2009 - 11:40 pm: |
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Frank, your pump would be by OBERDORFER BRASS CO if I remember correctly. They made huge numbers of gear pumps of various types.
Keith, I can't help on the year, but there is one suggested formula posted on this site that may explain the year based on the serial number. Perhaps Richard can help you with this. |
Robert B. Price
Senior Member
Username: rbprice
Post Number: 256
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, August 13, 2009 - 08:01 am: |
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Frank - Oberdorfer Pump is still in business in Syracuse, NY. Search on the name and you will find links to PDF files for all their pumps by model numbers or give their Customer Service folks a call and they can help identify the pump. |
RichardDurgee
Senior Member
Username: richarddurgee
Post Number: 2148
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, August 13, 2009 - 05:48 pm: |
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The 02143 stamped on the flywheel indicates 1912 mfg date and the first of the tapered shafts, The
17R stamped over 11110 on cylinder indicates a Model R Mfgrd 1911, somewhere in its history two engines were put together to make This one !
** |
Searcher
Senior Member
Username: searcher
Post Number: 322
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, August 15, 2009 - 03:06 pm: |
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Richard,
I have a small Gray (probably 3hp) with the typical Gray Motor Company, Detroit flywheel. However, the very sharp stamped numbers on the face of the flywheel rim indicate 6814 (clearly, there is no 0 in front of the serial number). Is it a very late Dubrie/early Gray transition or simply a Gray with the 0 left off the serial number or? The flywheel is held on by a gib key rather than a nut. The engine is pretty much identical to the R shown here.
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RichardDurgee
Senior Member
Username: richarddurgee
Post Number: 2151
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, August 15, 2009 - 05:41 pm: |
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Searcher the number doesn't seem to correspond with the description , Post some photos of the engine maybe we can figure out what it is ?
** |
Ernie
Senior Member
Username: ernie
Post Number: 1010
Registered: 01-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, August 15, 2009 - 08:45 pm: |
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4 digit numbers were on the early Gray engines that were actually DuBrie style. Search for DuBrie there are lots of pics on here |
Searcher
Senior Member
Username: searcher
Post Number: 323
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 18, 2009 - 04:58 pm: |
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Richard,
Here are some photos of the Gray with the SN 6814 stamped on the face of the flywheel rim. The crankshaft is in backwards. Seems the fellow I got this from had lots of 4 cycle farm engines and this was his first 2 cycle engine. It sat apart for a long time and when he got hard up he slapped it together without a clue as to what went where and put it up for sale. The only other numbers I see on it are cast in by slug plates, i.e., the jug is 1168? (hard to read), the crankcase is 1101? (even harder to read), the timer/pump gear 1080? (also hard to read), and the flywheel is 126. Any ideas?
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RichardDurgee
Senior Member
Username: richarddurgee
Post Number: 2156
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 18, 2009 - 07:28 pm: |
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The engine is a Gray Model R, first yr of mfgr was 1908, in later part of 1911 went to a tapered crankshaft.
* |
Frank Petran
Senior Member
Username: frank_petran
Post Number: 58
Registered: 05-2009
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 18, 2009 - 07:46 pm: |
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Does anyone know when Gray went from casting the advance mechanism standoffs on the cylinder/water jacket to casting the standoffs on the mechanism itself? As my “R” is 1911/1912 the standoffs are cast with the mechanism. Also, on a small Gray “U” the number before the “U” is a 2, any significance? Frank |
Searcher
Senior Member
Username: searcher
Post Number: 324
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 18, 2009 - 08:01 pm: |
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So Gray may have simply continued with the Dubrie number sequence for a while? Or, since this appears to be a 1908 engine, did they actually produce 6814 of them in 1908 under the Gray name? Always more questions with this old iron. Thanks. |
RichardDurgee
Senior Member
Username: richarddurgee
Post Number: 2157
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 19, 2009 - 08:35 am: |
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There were three different engines sold by Gray in the first three yrs of the company.
1. The Du Brie Designed engine only marketed in 1906.
Had the counterweight cast into the flywheel.
2.Gray designed engine, only marketed in 1907, rare but about 5 of them I am aware of.
this one was posted on here awhile back.
1907 ad
3. 1908 the new design Gray Model R like above post.
* |
Searcher
Senior Member
Username: searcher
Post Number: 326
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 19, 2009 - 08:59 am: |
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Richard,
That's a great post. Thanks. |
Robert
Senior Member
Username: robert
Post Number: 289
Registered: 07-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 19, 2009 - 10:55 am: |
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"Also, on a small Gray “U” the number before the “U” is a 2, any significance? Frank"
This is one of the unknowns apparently. Sometimes that number before the letter corresponds to the horsepower, sometimes not... |
Frank Petran
Senior Member
Username: frank_petran
Post Number: 59
Registered: 05-2009
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 19, 2009 - 09:44 pm: |
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Could it possibly be the decade? A 1 being 1910 to 1919, a 2 being 1920 to 1924?
Frank |
Ernie
Senior Member
Username: ernie
Post Number: 1256
Registered: 01-2002
| | Posted on Friday, August 27, 2010 - 05:28 pm: |
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Dick Day just got a 10 HP S it is real complete and has a real nice mechanical oiler, original igniton coil and really doesn't have any signs of abuse.
The SN is 010S1452
I will post pics as soon as I get them
Ernie |
RichardDurgee
Senior Member
Username: richarddurgee
Post Number: 2450
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, August 28, 2010 - 09:15 am: |
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Ernie, Thanks for the post!
Dick, your new old Gray is a 1911, 10Hp, model S
it is a very rare engine indeed and to be in original condition is outstanding ! I,m not at home to look at records but i believe that Bill schaller has one ?
In my collection I have a 10hp model R in good running condition but when I bought it about 10yrs ago it had a different flywheel on it that weighed about 90lbs,still looking for an original wheel ?
Hope to see some photos when possible.
* |
William Schaller
Senior Member
Username: billschaller
Post Number: 339
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, August 28, 2010 - 04:43 pm: |
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yes, I have one, it is a fairly striped down bare block, that sat outside a while. I would love to see pictures of Dick's as a comparison. |
Ernie
Senior Member
Username: ernie
Post Number: 1257
Registered: 01-2002
| | Posted on Sunday, August 29, 2010 - 12:11 pm: |
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I didn't look on the flywheel for the SN as it is on the tag and the usual flat spot on the side of the cylinder. The lubricator is a Detroit.
 |
Ernie
Senior Member
Username: ernie
Post Number: 1258
Registered: 01-2002
| | Posted on Sunday, August 29, 2010 - 12:48 pm: |
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Here are pics of the spare engine for my fantail launch. I have looked the flywheel over real good and do not see a SN. However it is identical to the "U" that is in my launch that you have the SN for.
 |
Ernie
Senior Member
Username: ernie
Post Number: 1259
Registered: 01-2002
| | Posted on Sunday, August 29, 2010 - 06:54 pm: |
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Pics of the lubricator on Dick's 10 HP Gray single. Note the level gauge on the right
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Jim Parrott
Member
Username: jim_parrott
Post Number: 11
Registered: 06-2009
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 05, 2011 - 06:59 am: |
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Richard,
I have three more Gray's for your list:
1911 Single 6 HP Model S S/N S11259
1914 Single 3 HP Model U S/N 23U14484
1920 Twin 6 HP Model U S/N 6U300201 |
Chuck Andrews
Visitor
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 15, 2013 - 09:49 pm: |
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I have a Gray marine engine, SN 16R9462 on flywheel. What would be the year and HP? Thanks for your help. |
