| Author |
Message |
    
byron
Member
Username: byron
Post Number: 15
Registered: 08-2009
| | Posted on Monday, July 19, 2010 - 09:44 am: | 
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Hi All,
Just an update on the engine a number of you offered some great advice on. As mentioned in a previous post I was unable to get the engine started. Well I took the plunge and lifted the engine out of the boat and have stripped it down. As suggested, one of the valves was stuck open and as it turned out one of the piston's rings were rusted to the piston. After a big effort we seperated the block from the engine and I have since purchased and fitted new rings, had the cylinders honed and the head machined. I have managed to get new gaskets and I hope to re assemble this weekend with the help of some generous friends who know a bit more than me!
I have the engine mounted on some timber in the garage so that I can get the engine started before it goes back in the boat - hopefully will be able to sort out any problems more easily.
One question I have is what order I shoud tighten the nuts on the head and if there is a recomended torque I should use or just till everything is tight?? Would value your input/advice?
Cheers
Byron
PS. I have posted some photos (yes, I worked out how to do it!) of lifting the engine out and as it is now prior to reassembling.
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senojn
Senior Member
Username: senojn
Post Number: 58
Registered: 08-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 20, 2010 - 05:57 pm: |
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Well done Byron you're getting there !
Did you try Pompei's for any parts and/or compare with Simplex/Hall Gearco in Sydney .
I find Pompei marketing confusing !
Neil |
laurie_d
Senior Member
Username: laurie_d
Post Number: 51
Registered: 10-2009
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 20, 2010 - 06:59 pm: |
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Byron, I agree with Neil - goood work , and nice pics. Re head tension and tightening order. Jeff Hall at Simplex Marine Engines says there is no specified head tension. My engineer mate says so long as they are all even they'll be OK. So I used a tension wrench to ensure they were even (sorry can't recall the setting I used). He also said to start in the middle and work the way out to the ends with tensioning. Are you replacing the head and heat exchanger studs? I used 316 stainless with 'NeverSeize' on all the threads.
ps I see there are 2 Simplex singles on e-bay. Regards. |
byron
Member
Username: byron
Post Number: 16
Registered: 08-2009
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 20, 2010 - 10:05 pm: |
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Thanks Neil and Laurie for your thoughts especially with the tensioning of the head. I did try and get a cost for specific gaskets from Hardman and Hall but they did not get back to me this time, but in saying that they have been very good with other things I have purchased from them. I could have got a gasket set from them for $110 which in hindsight would have been good value - I'm not sure what Leon Pompei would have charged for them but this time I got the head and mainfold gaskets off Joe Pompei (his uncle)who I know well and does the boat building at Mordialloc and have made the rest myself.
I have found the Pompei marketing on the internet a bit confusing too but Leon has been good in responding to email queries so that may be the best way to go.
Well hopefully I will be able to get the engine back together this weekend and hopefully see if we can get it running??
Cheers
Byron |
laurie_d
Senior Member
Username: laurie_d
Post Number: 52
Registered: 10-2009
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 20, 2010 - 10:54 pm: |
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Byron,
Thanks. I have to say that, having bought the full gasket set for the old style Simplex Twin from Simplex Marine Engines (They don't trade as Hardman and Hall thse days)only the head, manifold gaskets were excellent fits. The key paper gaskets (especially for the block and the gearbox) were not perfect and I had to modify them. Having said, that both would take some work to make from scratch. I recently sent a magneto to Leon Pompei for service and called in to the shed at Mordialloc, but he apparently doesn't work from there. The maggy is back but I haven't got around to giving it a run yet.
I'd love to find a good supplier of spark plug leads in Sydney. |
matt
Senior Member
Username: matt
Post Number: 116
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 21, 2010 - 12:45 am: |
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This guy is in England but postage and general help is great.http://www.magneto.co.uk/
Matt and Ron |
byron
Member
Username: byron
Post Number: 17
Registered: 08-2009
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 21, 2010 - 09:33 am: |
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Hi Laurie,
That's interesting about the paper gaskets as they were the ones I was after from Simplex. I ended up making my own - they seem to have come up really well - I have a cheap punch set that cut out the holes easily.
Leon works out of a shed on the creek at weekends. It will be great to hear how the maggy goes - I imagine that I will need mine serviced at some stage. I have also heard that some of the guys use someone at Moorabbin Airport to service theirs - anyway it would be good to have someone close to service it.
I got some great magneto leads from a mob called Ignition Components and Electronics in Warrigal Rd Cheltneham (03)9532 6000 here in Melb. They would make leads to any size and made mine from stainless. They specialise in leads for hot rods and old cars - there may be someone in Sydney that does the same or these guys may know of someone in Sydney.
I got the rings for the pistons (incidentally they were dodge 4 pistons) from this amazing place in Mitcham that is called 'auto surplus' - they specalise in hard to find parts - they had exactly what I needed. It certainly is a challenge to get parts for these old engines - I hope it will be worthwhile in the end!
Cheers
Byron |
todd_vidgen
Senior Member
Username: todd_vidgen
Post Number: 186
Registered: 03-2008
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 21, 2010 - 05:48 pm: |
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I make up leads and service maggys.
Also rebuild motors,just finished 2 last night.
Re the head studs,if in good nick 50 ftlbs
If a bit "chatty" around the block 40>45 ftlbs
Ps Glad to see you doing the whole job
Cheers Todd |
laurie_d
Senior Member
Username: laurie_d
Post Number: 53
Registered: 10-2009
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 21, 2010 - 07:05 pm: |
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Thanks gents, very helpful info.
The Simplex piston story gets more intriguing with every episode. Jeff Hall told me they were A model Ford pistons until 1964 when they changed to Holden (I gather the 179ci red motor). Now we know at least some were Dodge 4 (I gether this was for the 3 3/4" bore and presumably from Dodges of the 1930s?). I guess the only question is what was the difference between A Model and Dodge pistons?
Byron, given the work you are doing on your motor I'm sure you'll find it worthwhile. I still have mine set up on a stand and when it ticked over very nicely after I put it back together (I didn't need to replace rings or bearings) I was like a kid with his first bike. |
johnoxley
Member
Username: johnoxley
Post Number: 4
Registered: 04-2010
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 21, 2010 - 08:30 pm: |
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Hi - I believe Ford assembled cars and the mechanicals for Model T's were manufactured by the Dodge brothers. Dodge then realised they could build their own vehicles. I have no proof of this, or if this extended to Model A Fords. |
byron
Member
Username: byron
Post Number: 18
Registered: 08-2009
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 21, 2010 - 11:17 pm: |
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wow - that's amazing about the different pistons, especially the A Model Fords - mine was definately a dodge 4 piston - I actually queried it with the guy at the shop and he confirmed that it was correct. It would be interesting to know if the Dodge 4 and the holden pistons are similar or not?? It's good to know that Todd also services maggy's and makes leads as I had also struggled to find leads initially! Many thanks for the suggestion on the torque settings. Hopefully this weekend we will get it all back together and running!!! ... then it will be the small matter of getting it back in the boat! I'm very much hoping that I will be following in Laurie's footsteps and have it running once its all back together.
Cheers
Byron |
todd_vidgen
Senior Member
Username: todd_vidgen
Post Number: 187
Registered: 03-2008
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 21, 2010 - 11:40 pm: |
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PS: Forgot to mention lightly oil the threads and
contact face of the nut.
If you are using stainless fasteners apply antiseize
to threads as they often gall and seize.
Yes Laurie ,there is nothing like the first start
after resurrecting a motor from the dead.It gets me every time.Or would that be the celebratory beer/s?
Todd |
byron
Member
Username: byron
Post Number: 19
Registered: 08-2009
| | Posted on Thursday, July 22, 2010 - 06:27 pm: |
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Thanks Todd - will oil the threads and nuts - Am I right in assuming you use no gasket goo on the head and manifold gaskets (which are copper)but assume you use it on the paper gaskets?
Byron |
todd_vidgen
Senior Member
Username: todd_vidgen
Post Number: 188
Registered: 03-2008
| | Posted on Friday, July 23, 2010 - 12:17 am: |
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I spray a little hermatite on the head gasket faces
Nothing on the manifold if its in really good nick,
but use Permatex "Ultra copper "if the surfaces are
pitted etc.Permatex "ultra blue" on the paper gaskets.Remember you dont have to drown them in the
stuff,just a light coating,almost transparent.
What you see getting extruded on the outside is
invariably the same as the inside and you dont want bits of sealant floating around inside your
motor.Some people swear by gasket goo but I find
its messy if you have to disassemble things
Todd |
byron
Member
Username: byron
Post Number: 20
Registered: 08-2009
| | Posted on Friday, July 23, 2010 - 01:05 am: |
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that's really helpfull Todd - I have had the head machined so that is is good nick but the block faces has not been done and while I have cleaned it up is not as pristine as the head. I am concious that the holes that the water passes through are now bigger due to age on the head than what they match with on the block so am keen to ensure the water does not leak out into the cylinders. I'm assuming that the copper gasket combined with the correct tension and maybe some of the permatex ultra copper may do the trick. While I said gasket goo, I meant that I am using some of that gasket paint on stuff out of a bottle which I think is a permatex brand. Yes - I have used the gasket goo years ago and found it really messy too but useful if you didn't have a paper gasket. Thanks for the info on the paper gaskets - I have never been too sure of how much to use. You have helped clear that up.
Cheers
Byron |
johnoxley
Member
Username: johnoxley
Post Number: 5
Registered: 04-2010
| | Posted on Friday, July 23, 2010 - 01:52 am: |
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Hi - an old mechanic trick for problem heads is to take and old tin of Silverfrost that has sat on the shelf for years, decant the thin liquid on top and paint the gasket with the thick residue from the bottom of the tim. The head must go down straight without any sliding around - we would use service studs if the head was a bolt on type. Then torque up in the usual way. |
todd_vidgen
Senior Member
Username: todd_vidgen
Post Number: 189
Registered: 03-2008
| | Posted on Sunday, July 25, 2010 - 05:43 pm: |
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Your block does not look too bad from the pics you
have posted so I dont think you will have any problems with water seepage there,Dont put ultra
copper on the head gasket,just spray with a light coating of hylomar gasket jointing compound |
byron
Member
Username: byron
Post Number: 21
Registered: 08-2009
| | Posted on Thursday, August 05, 2010 - 09:13 am: |
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Hi All,
Well its done!!!!
We put the engine back together and were able to crank it to life. It ran quite rough in the garage on its temporary engine beds. We then lifted it back into the boat and it still ran rough. I then realised that the flywheel nut was loose. I tightened it and it was amazing the difference it made. The engine instantly ran heaps quieter and smoother.
Before we put the engine back in the boat we tightend up everthing to make sure there were no leaks. There is however a little weeping of petrol from the underside of the throttle pin - should I replace this - I'm not sure though how a new pin would stop petrol weeping out as there is no side play in the pin and it just seems to have a washer on the underneath side? It would be great to know what you all think?
The other issue I have is that the Wico magneto is under the floor and not that easy to access in a hurry. It appers that you need to push the button on the side of the magneto to stop the engine. I am just wondering if anyone has any ideas on how to make an engine stop button more accessible???
I have just purchased a second hand controller that has two levers on it to change the forward and reverse gears and a throttle lever. It also came with a cable so I hope I can make it all work. I will need to add a throttle cable to the unit.
So it is starting to come together - It will be great to get the controls on and working and the throttle pin weeping stopped. I'll try and upload some pictures of the reinstalled engine this weekend.
Cheers
Byron |
todd_vidgen
Senior Member
Username: todd_vidgen
Post Number: 190
Registered: 03-2008
| | Posted on Thursday, August 05, 2010 - 05:32 pm: |
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You can run a wire from the earth of the magneto
up to a convenient position to mount a push button,
then run a wire back to the body of the magneto
It wont be the throttle pin thats leaking,possibly
a small amount of crud in the needle and seat area,
or your float has become less buoyant and the float
level has changed causing the carb to flood out through the small groove on the throttle plate face. Dont try to bend the float arm to adjust as
you will break it
Todd. |
laurie_d
Senior Member
Username: laurie_d
Post Number: 56
Registered: 10-2009
| | Posted on Thursday, August 05, 2010 - 07:27 pm: |
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Byron, Congratulations, You've restored your motor and fitted it while I've been umming and arring about whether to fit mine or go for the Ford 10 (read wife still not so happy about having two motors sitting around despite Neil's best efforts to help me out). Re the fuel 'leak'. Does the round cap over your float valve have a hole in the centre? One of my carbys has that hole blocked (it was never drilled out) but the other is open, as it is with my Blaxland motor. I'm not sure why the difference. Re Todd's suggested 'ignition switch', one of the magnetos I have was wired up that way but it's a good idea to have a plug and socket in the circuit so you can remove the maggy readily. Our old family tradition was to store the maggy under the kitchen stove. They certainly do not like hanging around with lots of condensation (especially if it's a salty environment). I'm sure we all look forward to the final pics and YouTube movie!. Regards |
byron
Member
Username: byron
Post Number: 22
Registered: 08-2009
| | Posted on Friday, August 06, 2010 - 09:22 am: |
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Hi Todd and Laurie,
That's interesting about the small groove in the carby - I couldn't work out why that was there - I actually pulled the float out of the carby because the nut in the cork float had come unglued and could not be tightened up. I'll see what I can do to adjust the float level - that's probably the problem - I have cleaned out the carby and used the compressor to blow everything out so I would be suprised if the needle was gummed up but I'll check that too.
Thanks Laurie for the encouragement - I think we must make sure our wives don't talk. I'm sure you'll get a motor fitted soon. It really was amazing to see and hear the motor running - I was beginning to think it would never happen. Thanks for the ideas with the magneto and the wire - I plan to take it out each time and I can get to it but it was more the issue if I needed to stop the engine in a hurry it would be a bit awkward. I'll certainly get some pictures up ... you tube video ..mmm sounds a challenge!!
cheers
Byron |
todd_vidgen
Senior Member
Username: todd_vidgen
Post Number: 191
Registered: 03-2008
| | Posted on Friday, August 06, 2010 - 05:41 pm: |
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You can adjust the float level by moving the brass
ball on the needle up or down as it is only a press fit,but be gentle.This will only compensate for a while if the float is becoming "water logged"
Todd |
byron
Member
Username: byron
Post Number: 23
Registered: 08-2009
| | Posted on Monday, August 09, 2010 - 06:29 am: |
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That's interesting Todd - I didn't revarnish the float - do you think that that could be part of the problem - that the float is porus??? I'll try and adjust the ball on the needle - hadn't realised it was adjustable??
Also in answer to Laurie - the round cap over the float does have the whole drilled out. The manual says the cap needs to have a cork washer under it - not sure why given the whole in the cap but I think it may stop the needle from hitting the cap.
Well I have taken some photos of the engine and even taken a you tube video so you can see it working.
cheers
byron
For those interested in a you tube video of the engine running click on:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ld7JjSigTA |
ernie
Senior Member
Username: ernie
Post Number: 1247
Registered: 01-2002
| | Posted on Monday, August 09, 2010 - 07:07 pm: |
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Neat! |
laurie_d
Senior Member
Username: laurie_d
Post Number: 59
Registered: 10-2009
| | Posted on Monday, August 09, 2010 - 09:34 pm: |
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Byron, Thanks for the pic and You-Tube. Just a few follow up matters.
1. To clarify, 'varnish' the float. I trust you mean shellac. If there is anything better these days (other than using a synthetic float) I'd love to know about it. (e.g would expoxy resin do the job?)
2. Float level: The float should be horizontal and you can adjust that dinky little ball (very carefully) to achieve that. I made a small copper punch for driving it down the shaft. getting it back up was less neat.
3. Your exhaust system: is that an off the shelf system you have fitted after the heat exchanger?
4. Idling: In your You-Tube video the motor seeems to be running faster than a normal idling speed. Can anyone indicate the proper idle speed for the Simplex twin?
Cheers |
byron
Member
Username: byron
Post Number: 24
Registered: 08-2009
| | Posted on Monday, August 09, 2010 - 11:19 pm: |
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Hi there,
I'm just a beginner when it comes to all this stuff - the last few weeks is the first time I have had the engine running since I purchased it three years ago to put it in my boat.
1. The float seems to be original and I imagine cork - I was thinking it might need to be varnished - I guess it could be shellaced - not sure how either holds up in petrol? My only concern with epoxy could be its added weight?
2. thanks for the advice on the little ball - I had assumed it was all one piece? I'll also look at adjusting that as I am getting a small weep of petrol out from the carby area and I don't want that to continue.
3. I had Jack Pompei have it made when he was alive but I think his son Leon made it (who sells the simplex parts now at Mordialloc and on the web). They made it so that it bolted on to the exhaust flange. I have never seen any others so I don't know what else people have used but it seems to do the trick and will hopefully stop any water entering the engine from the exhaust pipe (from the sea) in the stern.
4. Idling - I would love to know what others thought too as I have nothing to compare to. The throttle was almost down as far as it could go. I could play a bit more with the air intake and the needle valve. When I have adjusted the needle valve down lower it seemed to want to stop - I guess it is on about 3/4's of a turn at the moment.
Its amazing how rough and noisy the engine was until I did up the nut to the flywheel - the engine became heaps quiter and smoother.
Cheers
Byron |
todd_vidgen
Senior Member
Username: todd_vidgen
Post Number: 192
Registered: 03-2008
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 10, 2010 - 01:25 am: |
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Have you tried adjusting the throttle stop screw?
Twins can idle really slow,you can count the firing pulses.Ive never put my tacho on one to find out how
slow.All cork floats seem to succumb to the corrosive effects of modern fuel,especially if it
has ethanol in it |
senojn
Senior Member
Username: senojn
Post Number: 59
Registered: 08-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 10, 2010 - 06:40 pm: |
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My understanding is that you can coat the cork float with the blue glue used to join PVC pipe .
Neil |
byron
Member
Username: byron
Post Number: 25
Registered: 08-2009
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 10, 2010 - 11:21 pm: |
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sounds like I need to do something with the cork float - the blue glue is an option or varnish - would one be any better than the other? |
laurie_d
Senior Member
Username: laurie_d
Post Number: 60
Registered: 10-2009
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 11, 2010 - 01:11 am: |
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Byron, I guess one issue is whether you would ever want to clean up/remove the sealer. I'm not sure how you would remove te blue goo after it has set but shellac can be readily disolved in metho (hence one reason why you do not use fuel with ethanol). Do not use oil based 'varnishes' Shellac flakes can be bought from most hardware stores. I use about 5 coats. Cheers. |
senojn
Senior Member
Username: senojn
Post Number: 60
Registered: 08-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 11, 2010 - 01:25 am: |
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Hello Byron ,
A very thoughtful and informative Youtube presentation .You may have to do a translation for other Enlish speaking communities though.ha ha !
As for the PVC joiner I haven't tried it myself but think I is the easier / cheaper way . Unless someone comes in with the contrary.
I don't think jou can get shellac anymore Laurie . And there are varnishes and varnishes .
On a lighter note : as we now recognize you from the video as Byron , the younger guy in the previous post must be 'Keats '.
So that you will recognise me next time here is a pic taken on the Mississippi taken a couple of years ago .
Neil |
johnny
Senior Member
Username: johnny
Post Number: 327
Registered: 03-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 11, 2010 - 09:48 am: |
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Byron,
We have used clear model airplane dope for sealing the cork floats. So far the ethanol has not attacked it. You can get it at your local hobby shop store or mail order it from off the Internet. We have also used tank sealer on the floats and it seems to hold up okay.
Dave Reed of Otto Gas Engine Works has the tank sealer and also sells senthedic floats for the Schebler carbs if that is what you have.
Otto Gas Engine Works, 2167 Blue Balls Road, Elkton, Maryland 21921-3330 Pone: 410-398-7340
Good luck! Liked your photos and video. Would like to see some more of your boat. What make boat is it? |
byron
Member
Username: byron
Post Number: 26
Registered: 08-2009
| | Posted on Thursday, August 12, 2010 - 10:17 am: |
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Hi All,
Thanks for your ideas - it is amazing how helpful the world can be ... especially about a simple cork float!!!
Thanks for the feeback Neil regarding the video - next time I'll try and put subtitles!! ahaha
and yes the secret is out - the earlier photo is of my son who I pressganged in to help me for five minutes which turned into 2 1/2 hours. He was almost late for his football game thanks to this old marine engine and his dad who underestimated the time needed for the job (again). Thanks for the photo Neil - if I am in the US I'll keep a lookout ahaah. The boat is a 21ft couta boat which I found as one of those renovator delights (read heap of junk) and spent the last 11 years restoring. The couta boat is an Austrlian designed fisihing boat that was designed to go out into Bass Straight (ocean) and fish for baracouta. The fleet of restored Couta Boats is one of the largest historical fleets around - here's a link to some info on the couta boats for any one interested: http://www.woodenboatshop.com.au/?MenuID=Couta%5FBoats%2F189%2F1476%2F
Although this is a local boat builder's site it provides a good quick look at the style of boat. I'll try and get some before and after photos up of my boat.
Well I'll do something with the float this weekend in an effort to stop a tiny bit of weeping of petrol from the carby. |
