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John Lauterbach
New member
Username: johnface
Post Number: 1
Registered: 06-2010
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 01, 2010 - 03:34 pm: | 
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Hello, I'm curious if there's a list of all the engine models that Palmer ever made. Also, if there is a registry of all the ones that currently exist - operational or placed in a museum. (Can't think of a word for "broken, but pretty.") That would be fantastic to see. |
Keith Billet
Senior Member
Username: keith
Post Number: 296
Registered: 02-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 01, 2010 - 04:52 pm: |
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John,
Richard Day has everything you are looking for. He is on this forum, and I'm sure he will reply. |
Keith Billet
Senior Member
Username: keith
Post Number: 298
Registered: 02-2002
| | Posted on Monday, June 07, 2010 - 08:28 am: |
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Per Richard Day Jr. He has been working on a short synopsis of the bottom line of the effort to collect Palmer serial numbers and link them to model years. He sent it off to Andrew hoping he can figure out where to put it. It will give you an idea of the numbers of Palmer engines in collectors hands. Very few of the large post WWII engines have been collected. I guess that is simply because so many are just conventional automobile, truck or tractor engines converted by Palmer for marine purposes. |
John Lauterbach
New member
Username: johnface
Post Number: 2
Registered: 06-2010
| | Posted on Monday, June 07, 2010 - 11:40 pm: |
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Thank you in advance, I didn't realize this would end up being an undertaking. I'm glad for it though, it sounds like the resulting information could be processed into something very interesting. |
RAY TOSTADO
Visitor
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 09, 2010 - 12:18 pm: |
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Looking at buying a sail with Palmer engine. Never dealt with brand name. Any advice? One comment was, "don't"; can't get parts or service for Palmers. |
Robert B. Price
Senior Member
Username: rbprice
Post Number: 318
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 09, 2010 - 03:02 pm: |
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John - could the raw data be put into Access so that is was fully searchable? |
Robert B. Price
Senior Member
Username: rbprice
Post Number: 319
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 09, 2010 - 03:05 pm: |
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Mr. Tostado - if we knew what model and year the Palmer was we would be able to respond more intelligently. There are lots of parts and manuals for Palmer marine engines available. It would also help to know if it is a fresh or salt water cooled engine. |
Richard A. Day Jr.
Senior Member
Username: richardday
Post Number: 870
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Friday, June 11, 2010 - 08:01 pm: |
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Preliminary Palmer engine listing for OME
by Richard A. Day Jr. 06-05-2010
John , I don't know why but your posting doesn't appear on my computer for 06-01-2010, Keith Billet and Bob Price thoughtfully brought it to my attention. I am currently working on a consolidated listing of all known Palmer engines by model and serial number only. No names of owners etc. To publish a listing with names and addresses etc is simply inviting who know what sort of activity. A second point I know many of the known engines have changed hands several times so I often don't know who now actually owns the engine or where it is. Very much doubt it has been scrapped!!
We now know starting about late 1908 or early 1909 the last two digits of a Palmer serial number are the year the engine was made. With the listing of known serial numbers I will include numbers which don't seem to have any logic in regard to when the engine was made.
Only one known engine, a model B has the end of the crankshaft stamped 1899. The current owner saw the documentation for this engine and it showed it was made in 1899. According to Palmer records their first year of engine production was 1895 when they made 100 engines the same as the first Palmer engine which was made in 1893/94. That first engine is still in existence. By 1900 they were making the same style engine in 1-1/2, 3, 5 and 7 HSP.
In 1900 they brought out Models B,C,D,E which were next generation two port, two stroke engines. The B and C are very popular with collectors. There are about a half dozen Model D known. Four are boat engines and two are factory marine engines but mounted in a Palmer base with two flywheels, governors and used as stationary engines. No complete E is known to exist. One incomplete rusted wreck is the only remaining evidence the E ever existed.
From 1900 up until about WWI Palmer turned out about a dozen different models both two stroke and four stroke. In 1912 they brought out Models called the NR and NL. NR=New R and NL=New L. These models along with the large Models F, K and NK were the backbone of their long running production of heavy duty marine engine for the working watermen. Parts for the NR and NL were still in production in 1962 for the 1925 update of the NR series with the release of the ZR series.
By 1913 Palmer ads claimed they had shipped 30,000 engines. Starting in late 1908 or early 1909 Palmer started a serial number system which used the last two digits as the year the engine was made. To date the earliest known serial number is C 032809 is for a model C in remarkably good condition. There are engines with strange numbers which don't seem to fit any pattern such as C 221-03 or DS 323.
Palmer Bros. Inc. and the 1947 successor company The Palmer Engine Co. Inc. continued to use the two digit system up until 1965 when they changed to the last digit only. The company went out of business in 1971. Thermo Electron bought five engine designs and continued to manufacture those models under the Crusader name.
One of the original 1947 partners in the formation of The Palmer Engine Co. Inc. carried on the residue disposal of the assets of the company as Greenwich Marine for approximately two years.
Post 1971 the only trace of Palmer was the Red Palmer House flag on Crusader ads.
I am also working on a second list with the known engines, models and serial numbers with the names and addresses of the owners. This covers the years 2008 to date. It will to be snail mailed to the owner and not listed on the internet. This is a continuation of the years 2000 to 2007 mailings. A separate listing of all known models and serial numbers without owners names and addresses will be made available on OME after 90 day from the last snail mailing which will give owners an opportunity to request their engine and serial number only not to be published. I will of course remove those from the listing out of courtesy to their owners.
The following will give you an idea or the number of models and number of engines in collectors hands. This listing doesn’t begin to contain the numbers of truck, tractor and automobile engine conversion models Palmer made. That listing will not contain significant numbers of these later years models as they are just not collected as a typical rule.
Those listings I will have to put off for the moment due to current work on the 2007-2010 mailing. I should caution the principle interests of collectors seems to concentrate on the early years and the smaller engines.
For example the M-60 AKA P-60 came on stream in 1955 and it was still being made by IHC up into the 1980s. It was a Palmer conversion of the IHC CUB LO-BOY tractor engine. Many are still in current use today. This is a remarkable small tractor engine. I believe IHC made over 500,000 over their production years. Few collectors bother collecting this engine as it is a great engine but you begin to get into seen one you have seen them all I guess. None of the early big engines such as the G F K and NK have survived. A few cylinders for the model F have survived.
Bill Fiege and I were independently collecting Palmer serial numbers and models back in the 1970s. So we joined forces up until about 1993 when Bill said he had to drop out due to family commitments so I carried it on since that time but I must credit him and others such as Andrew Menkart, Ernie Darrow, Bob Long, Ross Gould, Richard Durgee, Norman Mullings, Robert Hanna, Joe Holmes, Alan Roney and many others who made serious early contributions to this project. It has been truly amazing the number of people who have come forward over the last some 25 years.
The following is a snapshot of most of the early models. The number of each model in collector’s hands is shown. Probably the most popular of the Palmer engines is the YT-1 with 45 known. Probably the most sought after by collectors is the YT-2. For one of the 8 YT-2 the owner made the patterns for the cylinders and exhaust manifold. He had them cast and then machined them himself. He now has a mint restored YT-2 which one cannot tell from an original from Palmer Bros.
Model B 18 known. Q1 25, Q2 16, Q3 2, P1 4, U1 4, U2 5, L1 2,
L4 1, NL1 12, NL2 2, NL 3 1, NL4 1,Tag only, NR1 6, NR2 13, NR-3 1, RW1 7, YT1 45, YT2 8, ZR1 25, ZR2 8, ZR3 7, ZR4 4, PNR1 4,
PNR2 2, PNR3 2, HH 7, BH 14, BHT 4, BHW 6, BH25 6, PW27 42
Q1 for example is the way Palmer identified the number of cylinders on a particular model. Q2 means two cylinders. In the case of the BH the BHT means Timken roller bearings, BHW means Palmer made water pump. BH25 means shift from Snow and Nabstedt reverse gear to Paragon OXKB reverse gear and a shift to CU inch identification for engines in their product line.
PW-27 means Palmer/Wisconsin. Wisconsin AEH block, with a Palmer water cooled cylinder using the Wisconsin AFH piston and connecting rod to get displacement 27 CU inch.
One PW-27 was in daily seasonal crabbing operations on the Chesapeake bay from 1964 until 2009 when its crankshaft broke. An interesting note the waterman was able to return to port with the engine still running and the flywheel wobbling significantly.
Hopefully this long note will give you an idea what we will be posting in hopefully the not too distant future. |
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