| Author |
Message |
    
puddle_duck
New member
Username: puddle_duck
Post Number: 2
Registered: 02-2010
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 02, 2010 - 05:16 pm: | 
|
Hi all
Just entering the Enine room for the First time.
Maybe someone can help.
I have a 1971 MD3B which has served me without trouble for three years .
Recently just before lifting out for the winter. she started belching white smoke on start up and running at 1500 revs.
running was fairly even but she would not run when on idle just before gearing in .
A yard mechanic stripped out the rear cylinder and the gasket appears blown .The injector was also dirty .
Question is ,
assuming gasket was the problem , would the blowing of the gasket have preveneted the con rod bending .
I cant check unless the engine is lifted out .
Would the old engine have been more giving to this type of blow out .
There was no problem starting her up after about 6 turnovers. batteries were low also.
The mechanic did point out an oil pool in the piston top but I cannot see how this would have got there as there is no access for oil from above . It is possible it spilt in when the covers were being stripped off.
The oil was fully contaminated and milky colour .
I assume the mechanic is not trying to make more work.
i have suggested replacing the gasket , re assemble flush out old oil and start her up .
does anybody have any other advice here, IS there any further risks here
thanks
Donal |
larry_from_maryland
Senior Member
Username: larry_from_maryland
Post Number: 386
Registered: 07-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 02, 2010 - 06:20 pm: |
|
I don't know that engine, but if the head gasket goes the diesel injected into that cylinder will not burn. The piston and cylinder will get wet if it runs for awhile. It can look like moter oil if there is lots of carbon to mix with the diesel. Blowing white smoke is consistant with a blown head gasket. If there is no antifreeze in the bottem end i might just do the flush and try thing. Try to find why the gasket blew, overheating?,poor contact surfaces? |
puddle_duck
New member
Username: puddle_duck
Post Number: 3
Registered: 02-2010
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 02, 2010 - 07:24 pm: |
|
Larry ,
It's a Volvo Penta three cylinder .I suspect that there has always been a slight leak in the Gasket . Theres has always been a very slight steam hew on the exhaust and an oil residue on the water .
I dont know why it blew . The gasket itself looks almost intact . Thee is a slight burning on the cylinder side and the copper surrounds to the water slots have been pushed into the slot. I suspect that the pressure in the cylinder has always been blowing into the cooling end.
Maybe it just gave up.
With the boat being idle for a few weeks maybe water leaked back into the cylinder or condensation built up in the oil sump and the additional strain just blew it out ,
They engine has never locked up which suggests that a hydrolock has not happened ,
Donal |
matt_morehouse
Member
Username: matt_morehouse
Post Number: 14
Registered: 12-2009
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 02, 2010 - 07:58 pm: |
|
I had this engine in my 40' sailboat and have rebuilt it and several others.
If I were you and intended to keep the boat and wanted the engine to be reliable I would rebuild the top end (all three cylinders). Here is how I would proceed:
1. Remove all three heads and intake manifold
2. Boil them out
3. Clean all gasket surfaces
4. Primer and paint all parts
5. Replace everything using new headnuts, you may have to replace some of the manifold bolts. use anti seize compound on manifold bolts.
This operation is a lot easier if the engine is removed from the boat and the work done in a warm shop. This will allow you to clean and paint the entire engine. I have always found that a clean well painted engine behaves better and is easier to maintain. Also this will give you the opportunity to clean and paint the engine compartment which also contributes to a happy, well behaved engine.
I know this is a lot of work but if you are going to keep the boat it is well worth the effort. If you decide to do this PM me. I have a few tricks to make the job easier. |
puddle_duck
Member
Username: puddle_duck
Post Number: 4
Registered: 02-2010
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 03, 2010 - 03:55 am: |
|
Thanks again for that valuable information .
I suppose the big issue about rebuilding is whether the life span or stresses created by the upper end rebuild transfers new wear to the lower end and then your into chasing your tail .
Should I put a bandage on it and see where it goes.
I assume by boiling out you mean to wash out with a strong solution of some sort to remove the carbon build up. etc .
IS there any way to check the integrity of the manifold after removing .
I have painted various parts before and it does add a look to the Engine.
If I can get her working after the gasket repair I would probably consider a removal next season . It is almost 40 years old now. |
matt_morehouse
Member
Username: matt_morehouse
Post Number: 15
Registered: 12-2009
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 03, 2010 - 09:40 am: |
|
A top end rebuild shouldn't affect the bottom end. In all my years building those engines only a very few have needed bottom end attention. Those engines are built like cannons.
Whether or not to rebuild depends more on hours than years and how the engine has been maintained.
I assume this is a salt water engine without heat exchanger and it is in a sailboat? Most of those engines have few hours and are fairly clean on the inside.
Forgot to mention; when you pull the heads and manifold be sure to remove the freeze plugs before the boil out. Replace with new ones.
After the boil out the condition of the heads and manifold should be apparent. I suppose you could do a pressure test but I never did. For the boil out I use a strong solution of lye in hot water (drain cleaner works well). After boil out you may want to sandblast the parts before primer and paint. I use Ospho applied to warm, dry parts as a primer.
If you go the bandaid route I would strongly recommend at least also doing the manifold.
All this sounds like a lot of work, and it is, but not beyond the skill level of someone with normal mechanical abilities and a good torque wrench.
The North Atlantic is no place to have your "Iron Genny" throw craps when you're staring down a lee shore. |
puddle_duck
Member
Username: puddle_duck
Post Number: 5
Registered: 02-2010
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 03, 2010 - 12:38 pm: |
|
Indeed The North Atalntic is not the place for Faint of Heart, It seems that we are at either side of the great divide.
Thanks again for the insight,
I have had a discussion with a mechanical engineer who has years of experience with ferry engines. Who came to look .
He would be happy to re-assemble, cleaning out the manifold with Vinegar , I assume the same process as your own Boil method and change the coipper gaskets on the manifold side.
He scraped back the remains of the Gasket on the block and no signs of cracking or decay .
He did suggest a rebuild would be a good idea in a few years taking the engine out etc.
All very hopeful . He did not think a con rod would be damaged . These engines he said were more flexible than the single block type.
Well I think its times to get dirty .
Thanks for the help |
matt_morehouse
Member
Username: matt_morehouse
Post Number: 16
Registered: 12-2009
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 03, 2010 - 06:28 pm: |
|
sounds like a good plan don't forget to R&R the freeze plugs.
What type of boat is it in?
The only tricky part of the operation is setting the space between the head and the top of the piston you might have to add or remove shims from under the cylinder. Do you have a manual? |
puddle_duck
Member
Username: puddle_duck
Post Number: 6
Registered: 02-2010
| | Posted on Thursday, February 04, 2010 - 03:49 am: |
|
Shes a Fisher 30 Motor Sailor as you might have suspected . 1971
Found her on the East Coast Of England, seems she had done most of her work around here and some trips to France.
Shes now Testing herself around the Fastnet
and Cork Harbour .
I have the workshop manual , and have not disturbed the cylinders or the liners and she has not been turned since taking the head off and block off.
The problem seems to be isolated to the rear block . The Injectors were opened on the other two and are both clean.
My Visiting Mechanical Engineer was fairly happy . He is also an Insurance surveyor so he would have no problem passing the solution and covering the Boat etc .
We checked the cylinderliners and they were in good condition , a small bit of rough at the top but no lip .They may have been pulled by previous owners . The gearbox has been changed .
She is bolted to the floor and so makes a bit of vibration at 2000rpm, 1600 would be normal .
Do you sail yourself? |
matt_morehouse
Member
Username: matt_morehouse
Post Number: 17
Registered: 12-2009
| | Posted on Thursday, February 04, 2010 - 10:29 am: |
|
Yes, I have a lot of miles in my wake. The last boat I owned was a Freya 39 which I kept and sailed on San Francisco Bay and up and down the west coast as far south as Mexico. We also raced her to Hawaii. I sold her some years ago and bought a wilderness ranch in the Boonies.
If your engine has cylinder liners it is a 17C which replaced the 3B in 1975. To pull the liners you must remove the cylinder(s) and press them out. If you're going that far you might as well replace the rings. Now we're talking major surgery.
I usually ran mine around 1500. It was mounted on rubber or similar and vibration was not a problem. Check your shaft alignment.
Another thing I forgot (its been about 15 years since I rebuilt one of these) when you remove the head(s) do a valve job.
A Fisher 30 probably uses the Iron Wind quite a bit. Sailing in those seas I'd make damn sure she was in top form. |
puddle_duck
Member
Username: puddle_duck
Post Number: 7
Registered: 02-2010
| | Posted on Thursday, February 04, 2010 - 06:14 pm: |
|
Well , that seems like a bit of a change,
I suppose your still dealing with Horses , all your life, where ever you move too.
San Francisco , beautiful city ,Got the Train over the Rockies some time back .I suppose you wont find much saltwater in the Wilderness.
I had the shaft out last year to check. The bearing was white metal type with a grease point operated in the wheel house and was still in good nick.
Its clearly a game of second guessing what the engine is going to do next despite the overhauling ,
I prefer to use it as little as possible just leaving the mooring , I need a good 25 knots of wind to get her going though , |
matt_morehouse
Member
Username: matt_morehouse
Post Number: 18
Registered: 12-2009
| | Posted on Friday, February 05, 2010 - 12:05 am: |
|
Biggest problem with engines, especially diesels, in sailboats is that they are not used enough and when they are they are used not brought up to heat and worked hard.
A diesel is happiest when operated at about 80% load. I used to run my beast at load with my boat tied up in the slip every once in a while and I always tried to run her full bore going out and coming in the harbor.
Best to run them hot and hard. |
puddle_duck
Member
Username: puddle_duck
Post Number: 8
Registered: 02-2010
| | Posted on Friday, February 05, 2010 - 04:18 am: |
|
I would certainly agree with that ,
I remember going aground once on sand bars in one of our of our local harbours at dusk.
As you know there is 7 tons in a fisher with a gently sloping keel ,
There was a lot of black smoke that evening ,trying to reverse here off. Eventually I had no choice but to drive her through the bar and had no need to clean the keel bottom that winter.
I got the feeling she was relishing in using the engine properly
Hot is good. |
puddle_duck
Member
Username: puddle_duck
Post Number: 9
Registered: 02-2010
| | Posted on Saturday, February 27, 2010 - 11:44 am: |
|
Hi Again ,
Have managed to change out the old head gasket which had blown . desludged the sump and replaced with good old oil to flush out old milky oil.
Started engine and ran fine holding idle after heating up.
The new problem -
Water started to dribble out of the forward air intake. I only noticed this when I killed the engine. When I removed the air intake I could push my finger right in and there was a puddle of water in as far as i could see with a flash light .
The exhaust was fine for a old engine .
Any hints.
I had a hose pushed into the water intake filter unit to supply water as the boat was on the hard. I know its not possible but it looked to me like water was running direcly through into the air intake. It was really dribbling out of the cylinder head where the air intake is cast into.
Does anyone think the mechanic forgot to tighten something here, would the gasket be failing this bad and engine running smoothly . Or would anyone think the manifold box has failed.
thanks |
oslin04
Advanced Member
Username: oslin04
Post Number: 32
Registered: 10-2006
| | Posted on Saturday, February 27, 2010 - 01:34 pm: |
|
Having read your post I think the gasket is not sealing properly for what ever reason, one thought, there was not a track in the head or the block where it was blown before was there? if there was and it was not welded or the head skimmed it will blow there again, do a compression test on that cyl to see if it is low, oh and make sure you get all the water out of the bore and oil it otherwise it will lock up solid with corrosion. |
puddle_duck
Member
Username: puddle_duck
Post Number: 10
Registered: 02-2010
| | Posted on Saturday, February 27, 2010 - 03:00 pm: |
|
Hi There,
The cylinder which had its gasket changed is bone dry . Its the one at the other has decided to leak now, but leak water out through the air intake for some reason.
The replaced gasket hopefully was done well . |
oslin04
Advanced Member
Username: oslin04
Post Number: 33
Registered: 10-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, February 28, 2010 - 04:36 am: |
|
Hi puddle duck, well I am affraid you are going to have to take the head off that one as well and check it out,if you have wet liners it is possible you might have a hole in the liner, and if not it must be the head gasket. |
puddle_duck
Member
Username: puddle_duck
Post Number: 11
Registered: 02-2010
| | Posted on Sunday, February 28, 2010 - 07:44 am: |
|
Thanks again ,
well see what develops, |
matt_morehouse
Member
Username: matt_morehouse
Post Number: 27
Registered: 12-2009
| | Posted on Sunday, February 28, 2010 - 09:54 am: |
|
Seems to me it has to be a crack in the head. Might make sense to remove and clean up the intake manifold. A compression test also makes sense before you tear into it.
I don't think it is a liner or head gasket problem or you would have had water in the cylinder.
Just for curiosity, remove the valve cover and let us know what you see. That shouldn't take more than ten minutes and it has to come off anyway. |
puddle_duck
Member
Username: puddle_duck
Post Number: 12
Registered: 02-2010
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 02, 2010 - 09:13 am: |
|
hi again ,
pulled off all valve covers and the forward two have pure emulsion on the inner side. Some of its yellow and some newer grey .
The mechanic said he pulled these off and there was no sign of any problem here when changing the first head gasket .
Either way I pulled the manifold and to be honest It still looks fairly sound. there is water trace in the forward outlet where it presumbly flooded into or out of the exhaust chamber.
All this still does not explain how water came out of the air intakes.Clearly fi there was there during running it would have been sucked into the combustion chamber
My marine surveyor suggested to clean out the sump and flush out again with cleaner oil and reassemble .Also that the two valves may have been left open slightly on stopping and flooded the cylinder .
He did not think it was head gaskets .
Possibly water found its own level in the manifold as I had a hose pipe in the intake strainer to feed the engine whilst running but overflowing to outside . Not sure about this theory as it would have to pass the impeller fairly quick to raise the head in the water that was left in the manifold and why did the other air takes not leak water .
Will be checking the manifold to see any leaks appear.
As i siad before the exhaust had no white smoke whilst it was running for over half an hour. the water only came out when the engine stopped and the hose was left on for about five minutes .
thanks all. |
matt_morehouse
Member
Username: matt_morehouse
Post Number: 28
Registered: 12-2009
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 02, 2010 - 09:54 am: |
|
Next time when, running the engine on the hard, place the water supply hose in a bucket and the engine intake water hose in the same bucket. This way the engine water pump functions exactly as it would if the boat was in the water.
To flush the engine I have used a solution of about 25% kerosene in cheap engine oil and run the engine about five minutes then drain and replace with all cheap oil, run for an hour or so then drain and go to the good oil.
I would really like to see you R&R the freeze plugs and boil out that manifold. Always use new gaskets and a good grade sealant. Check the bolts and replace any that appear wasted. Torque them all the same. I can't remember exactly but 35-40lbs seems about right. I replaced all mine with stainless, probably not worth the expense if you don't plan on keeping the boat.
I know how frustrating all this is having been through it myself. |
puddle_duck
Member
Username: puddle_duck
Post Number: 13
Registered: 02-2010
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 02, 2010 - 10:25 am: |
|
Thanks again ,
The manifold bolts all came off easy enough and all look shiny .I have 3 new gaskets ready
This LYE you talk about , is this a caustic soda or similar compound.
Do you actually boil as in heat or is just a cold soak .
D |
matt_morehouse
Member
Username: matt_morehouse
Post Number: 29
Registered: 12-2009
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 02, 2010 - 11:09 am: |
|
Yes it is caustic soda, common drain cleaner.
It will work either hot or cold, but hot is much quicker. Boiling will take maybe an hour, cold could take days.
When it comes out it will rust quickly. Blow it dry and apply a coat of Ospho, let dry over night then paint. I use Rustoleum. |
puddle_duck
Member
Username: puddle_duck
Post Number: 14
Registered: 02-2010
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 02, 2010 - 12:48 pm: |
|
Great ,
Found an etching primer here, and will collect the caustic tomorrow.
Lets hope there no aluminium in side !!
I should have the cleanest leaking manifold if nothing else. |
Dev Lucas
Visitor
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 10, 2010 - 01:52 am: |
|
HI, I have a MD3B 1973, just bought the yacht (5mnths) of same age with not much use for the past 5 or so years,motor starts 1st time every time sound real well has new salt water cooling system placed, changed oil 15w 20 plus filter.On start oil gauge goes to 40psi after approx 10mins drops to 20 at half revs then slowly drops to 10 if revs are taken down to idle the gauge goes to 4or 5 if i increse the revs to half throtle it jumps back to 15 or so psi if any one can help I would be greatfull as I do think the old motor is worth while (not one oil leak)Thankyou Dev, |
puddle_duck
Member
Username: puddle_duck
Post Number: 15
Registered: 02-2010
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 10, 2010 - 03:37 am: |
|
Hi there,
I also have a 1971 MD3B ,
She also goes to 40 psi on start up and stays there generally when the engine is working untill warmed up for at least 2hrs or so. then she drops back to 20 and stays there for as long as I have had the engine running for , 9 hrs max so far.
Ive been told it not to serious for the late fall off in pressure , but yours sounds a bit more like trouble, |
adsum
Member
Username: adsum
Post Number: 10
Registered: 01-2008
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 10, 2010 - 04:17 am: |
|
Here are some figures from the workshop manual for MD3B:
Oil capacity excl. filter 5.5 dm3 (4.8 imp.qts/5.8 US qts)
Oil capacity incl. filter 5.75 dm3 (5.0 imp.qts/6.0 US qts)
These figures are incl. RB-gear for MS-gear add 0.6 dm3 (0.53 imp. qts./0.63 US qts).
Viscosity above 20 dgr. C (68 dgr. F) SAE 20
Viscosity below 20 dgr. C (68 dgr. F) SAE 10W
Oil pressure, warm engine, idling, kp/cm2 (PSI) 0.8-1.5 (11.4-21.3)
Oil pressure , warm engine, max r/s, kp/cm2 (PSI) 2.0-3.0 (28.4-42.7) |
puddle_duck
Member
Username: puddle_duck
Post Number: 16
Registered: 02-2010
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 10, 2010 - 04:36 am: |
|
yeah ,
I have that workshop manual too. Its great to have somehting like this when dealing with old engines and a good set of imperial sockets and wrenchs.
Has anyone rinsed out the engine sump before with diesel fuel .I have done this and it seems to wash all the gunk out with it ,
Be sure to measure what goes in and what comes out . |
Dev Lucas
Visitor
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 10, 2010 - 06:03 am: |
|
Hi again, Thanks for the info Ill try to find that manual interesting to know you get a constant 20psi I would be happy with that, I guess Ill need to start with agood clean up of sump & more Ive been told it may be the oil pump seals I guess its a little of trial & error Thanks again guys.Dev |
adsum
Member
Username: adsum
Post Number: 11
Registered: 01-2008
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 10, 2010 - 08:54 am: |
|
Thirty years ago I rinsed the crankcase of a motorcycle with diesel fuel. Afterwards the paper gaskets leaked. Diesel fuel has no significant lubricating effect and can cause a lot of damage.
Before changing oil these days I add "engine flush" to the old oil of my more than 35 year old VP MD2B. Then I run the engine for about half an hour. "Engine flush" changes the old oil into a rinse fluid that solves the sludge deposits. I use a vacuum oil extractor to remove almost all old oil. After I used this “engine flush” for the first time the engine ran faster (more revs by less friction) and there was less (white) smoke then before when running at high speed.
I use “Advanced Formula Motor Flush” from Forté but there are a lot of other brands available (Amsoil, Wynns, Tecflow a.o.)
When you look for “engine flush” on Youtube you’ll find many video movies on this subject.
Here is a nice one from Protec:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8xwg5TnMjL8&feature=related |
puddle_duck
Member
Username: puddle_duck
Post Number: 17
Registered: 02-2010
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 10, 2010 - 09:17 am: |
|
Hi ,
Yes I was wondering would there be .
It was purely to thin the old water contaminated engine oil before sucking out as I did not want to start her again until the emulsion was fully cleared . |
matt_morehouse
Advanced Member
Username: matt_morehouse
Post Number: 31
Registered: 12-2009
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 10, 2010 - 09:30 am: |
|
You won't be able to completely clear the engine unless you run it at least briefly to push the flushing solution through the engine.
My trick of using kerosene (or diesel) worked fine for me the few times I used it. |
puddle_duck
Member
Username: puddle_duck
Post Number: 18
Registered: 02-2010
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 10, 2010 - 10:09 am: |
|
Hi,
I did hand crank the engine a good few times and poured the Diesel in on top of the rockers which flushed down through the push rods . And the rest went through the filler cap.
By the way , I also boiled out the exhaust manifold stripping off all frost plugs etc first , seemed to get a lot of gunk out .
Rinsed and painted as you said. Waiting now to reassemble and fill with oil and run her to see?? |
mirida
New member
Username: mirida
Post Number: 1
Registered: 03-2010
| | Posted on Thursday, March 11, 2010 - 05:04 pm: |
|
Found the manual though its combined md1,2&3 not sure of the oil pump advice for md3b being the same as they explain is there any advice of caution in pulling the pump section apart or would it be best to clean and flush the whole system as the motor sits first, not knowing to much i feel this, more of a problem than just a clean.thanks for your thoughts, dev. |
puddle_duck
Member
Username: puddle_duck
Post Number: 19
Registered: 02-2010
| | Posted on Thursday, March 11, 2010 - 07:31 pm: |
|
Hi ,
I assume your talking about the oil pump in behind the Flywheel as far as I see it .
If you can access it , give it a try , The removing notes seem straight and simple enough . No springs flying off into the Bilge ,
I suppose you should clean and rinse first as you dont want to clean the pump and then flush out just in case.
Let me know how you get on .
Why do want to take it off , is there a problem |
matt_morehouse
Advanced Member
Username: matt_morehouse
Post Number: 32
Registered: 12-2009
| | Posted on Thursday, March 11, 2010 - 07:57 pm: |
|
I took apart a lot of these engines and never found a problem with the oil pumps. Just two gears with a spring loaded pressure relief valve.
You must remove the flywheel which can be difficult. Once the flywheel is off the oil pump is no problem. |
mirida
New member
Username: mirida
Post Number: 2
Registered: 03-2010
| | Posted on Thursday, March 11, 2010 - 08:38 pm: |
|
my problem I guess is I dont know what im doing, though keen to learn as when I sail I want to know the motor (I thought I bought a sail boat but for now I bought a motor)I have to shift the boat 250 N/miles thought all would be good, all is, except after 20mins or so oil pessure goes way down I was told may be the oil pressure pump.thanks, dev, |
sailingerie
Member
Username: sailingerie
Post Number: 4
Registered: 06-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, March 11, 2010 - 09:01 pm: |
|
mirida are you absolutely sure the problem is not a bad gauge?? I have seen this before. Is the engine making any new noise or knocking? |
mirida
New member
Username: mirida
Post Number: 3
Registered: 03-2010
| | Posted on Thursday, March 11, 2010 - 09:31 pm: |
|
thanks sailgerie, have changed from elec gauge to new capillary type both gauges read the same. |
mirida
Member
Username: mirida
Post Number: 4
Registered: 03-2010
| | Posted on Thursday, March 11, 2010 - 09:44 pm: |
|
have had the boat 5mths sound really well with no uneven shudders or knocks backs right down to idle does not miss a beat blows more blueish smoke than it should though has not been used for years and this is not to extreme. Thanks, dev. |
matt_morehouse
Advanced Member
Username: matt_morehouse
Post Number: 33
Registered: 12-2009
| | Posted on Thursday, March 11, 2010 - 11:05 pm: |
|
Does it drink oil? More than a pint in 50 hours could indicate a need for a rebuild; rings valves etc.
Try this; tie her up and run full bore for five minutes or so and see if the blue smoke turns black.
If it does your problems may be over (keep an eye on the temp). |
mirida
Member
Username: mirida
Post Number: 5
Registered: 03-2010
| | Posted on Friday, March 12, 2010 - 12:27 am: |
|
Thanks for your advise Matt,to date its oil level is good (not burning or leaking)though to see the oil guage at its worst paranoia sets in hence short trips so the hours Ive had running are not great. it sounds like a good first aproach will definitely try it Thanks again, dev; out of cruiosity, problems over- means a done unit or in need of a good scrubing. |
puddle_duck
Member
Username: puddle_duck
Post Number: 20
Registered: 02-2010
| | Posted on Friday, March 12, 2010 - 09:21 am: |
|
Just started up the engine after cleaning manifold and new exhaust gaskets etc .
Started after third go. seemed a bit noisy with air intakes off.Could hear all valves working I suppose.
Noticed a glisten on the chamber above the inlet valve when looking in when she was running . The middle one was good and dry and the One I had changed the head gasket on was glistening as if mildy oil wet , not runny in any way just wet looking . The other one was definitely condensing water in the air intake chamber as it was emulsifying slightly and running back down the wall of the air intake chamber .The chamber was also holding a cloud of what looked like exhaust gas every time it sucked in and blew out , Is this normal ,Should I strip down or try burning off when boat launched. No sign of leak like the last time , I suspect water is in the cylinder but she held the revs and it must be a very small amount which I thought would burn away very quickly
Exhaust was definitely dirtier this time from previous times and a bit smoky , The New bilge oil was clear after the running for about ten minutes. |
matt_morehouse
Advanced Member
Username: matt_morehouse
Post Number: 34
Registered: 12-2009
| | Posted on Friday, March 12, 2010 - 10:27 am: |
|
When an engine sits for a long time or has been only lightly used the cylinder walls can glaze and/ or the rings may never have set. This can cause blowby resulting in increased oil consumption and possibly low oil pressure. Running the engine hard may cause the rings to break free and seal. Black smoke is a sign of an overloaded diesel engine and indicates that the rings have sealed. Don't run overloaded for more than a few minutes. Doing this every once in a while also "blows the carbon out".
If you engine is not drinking oil I don't think you have a ring or valve problem. Seems to me that once my 17C got up to heat the oil pressure settled in at about 20lbs.
Have you tried a heavier weight diesel oil? I used 10w50. Be sure to use an oil rated for diesel service.
Do you have a mechanical gauge connected directly to the engine block?} |
puddle_duck
Member
Username: puddle_duck
Post Number: 21
Registered: 02-2010
| | Posted on Friday, March 12, 2010 - 02:57 pm: |
|
Success at last ,
I bit the bullet and took off the offending cylinder head and as expected with relief , another blown gasket in two sides and hope fully nothing more serious.
I hope this will be the end of that , Fingers crossed , Or else I will be doing the middle one not to far away .
I just need to get a new pair of nuckles now.
and hope my reassembly does not shift anything as I dont want to get into timing etc .
As you say I dont have an engine drinking oil problem , I had thought my reverse gear had broken a seal into the engine sump but that oil is jet black and healthly in the gear box . MS type.
Hope fully I can her a good blow. but when she is on the blocks I will take it easy.
The last time I did big revs , I ended up loosening a high pressure feed line, lucky my nose was working . |
matt_morehouse
Advanced Member
Username: matt_morehouse
Post Number: 35
Registered: 12-2009
| | Posted on Friday, March 12, 2010 - 05:47 pm: |
|
I don't see how it would be possible to overload the engine while out of water and I wouldn't even try. Wait until you are in the water, tie her down, put her in gear and let 'er rip. |
mirida
Member
Username: mirida
Post Number: 6
Registered: 03-2010
| | Posted on Friday, March 12, 2010 - 07:59 pm: |
|
yes I have connected a machanical gauge direct to the block though have not tried a heavier oil I will do as you say and tie down tight when/if the black smoke blows should fuel+oil additive/cleaners be used or just take er for a good run.Thanks, dev |
adsum
Member
Username: adsum
Post Number: 12
Registered: 01-2008
| | Posted on Sunday, March 14, 2010 - 03:33 am: |
|
Quote: "You must remove the flywheel which can be difficult. Once the flywheel is off the oil pump is no problem."
I removed the oil pump of a MD2B for a cleaning job without removing the flywheel. The engine was mounted in the boat so not the ideal circumstances. You have to work carefully, keep the contact surfaces clean and use a very thin gasket (VP 859035). After all this wasn't a very difficult job. |
mirida
Member
Username: mirida
Post Number: 7
Registered: 03-2010
| | Posted on Thursday, March 18, 2010 - 02:41 pm: |
|
Thanks for the return adsum (been away with work )I need the easy way out for the moment I am not with the boat all the time, though am waiting for the change of seasonal weather to bring me north, bought for a good price and love working on her all is ready except this motor problem,once home I may do major things all round, if what Matt Morehouse is saying works Ill be ahead, everything else runs and sounds fine if it doesnt, I guess Ill be starting with the oil pump Thanks again for your help. Hows that motor sounding puddle-duck? |
puddle_duck
Member
Username: puddle_duck
Post Number: 22
Registered: 02-2010
| | Posted on Thursday, March 18, 2010 - 03:28 pm: |
|
Hi ,
Just got my Head gasket , So wont be fitting till next week.
I have boiled out the head also without washing down the springs etc . Cleaned off the remains of the last gasket and repainted etc . The central gasket ring burst right through , looked like it was cracked already or rusted through .
Just wondering when i am fitting again , If i drop on the rocker assembly having not disassembled the rockers and shaft etc can I assume that I should not have to adjust the valves , The engine has not been turned since the disassembly .
Good luck with your exploring . I was a bit apprehensive about taking anything other than oil and water areas apart ,
These old engines seem relatively easy to explore without fiddling .
Paying for a professional to change a head gasket was enough for me , I will tackle the remainder myself.
Will talk next week, |
mirida
Member
Username: mirida
Post Number: 8
Registered: 03-2010
| | Posted on Thursday, March 18, 2010 - 07:09 pm: |
|
totally agree with'do it yourself'especially with a site like this with everyones input & experience,the info from what I gather (with all the professionals here on line) is far better than any professional I have found around me, so thanks to all. hope all goes well puddle duck, and take care of those nuckles.look forward to hearing. |
matt_morehouse
Advanced Member
Username: matt_morehouse
Post Number: 37
Registered: 12-2009
| | Posted on Thursday, March 18, 2010 - 07:20 pm: |
|
PD---You should readjust the valves. The new head gasket and vagaries when tightening the head nuts (you will use a torque wrench, won't you?) will make a difference in valve clearance. |
puddle_duck
Member
Username: puddle_duck
Post Number: 23
Registered: 02-2010
| | Posted on Saturday, March 20, 2010 - 02:19 pm: |
|
Matt & mirida,
Thanks,
I have my torque wrench got that the other day.
and my feeler gauges in Imperial .
Will get back soon I hope, |
puddle_duck
Member
Username: puddle_duck
Post Number: 24
Registered: 02-2010
| | Posted on Thursday, March 25, 2010 - 12:16 pm: |
|
Hi all,
Just to let you know that all has been put back together , even had a go on adjusting valves . Engine started first time and ran perfectly for half hour or so until warm ,
Purred at idle .nice clean air intake ports and exhaust was virtually clear when collected and looked at through glass,very minor sheen , no smut /tar . Still had some light blue smoke but this was always there,
I might change the last gasket just for fun now.
The engine oil was clean before start and came out grey after running . I assume that the contamination will be still there until a few more oil changes take place.
Any comments on valve adjusting , I attempted to do them but turning the handle to rocker position is real hit and miss and makes a difference between .35mm clearance and none , I eventually did it by feel and the feel of the other unchanged rockers.
D |
matt_morehouse
Advanced Member
Username: matt_morehouse
Post Number: 41
Registered: 12-2009
| | Posted on Thursday, March 25, 2010 - 12:53 pm: |
|
Use the flywheel to rock the valves. |
puddle_duck
Member
Username: puddle_duck
Post Number: 25
Registered: 02-2010
| | Posted on Thursday, March 25, 2010 - 01:18 pm: |
|
Do you mean instead of the hand crank handle option which is what I was using . The compression of the cylinders is preventing a fine adjustement to get to rock stage.
When i thought I did get it , after 1 full turn I found the valve that was adjusted loosened a lot instead of holding the adjustment made,
So i did it by feel instead .to copy the other valves at various stage of revolution . |
matt_morehouse
Advanced Member
Username: matt_morehouse
Post Number: 42
Registered: 12-2009
| | Posted on Thursday, March 25, 2010 - 11:26 pm: |
|
When you get close, tweak the flywheel to make the final adjustment, it is a lot more sensitive than using the hand crank. Try it. do it slow so the compression bleeds off. |
mirida
Member
Username: mirida
Post Number: 9
Registered: 03-2010
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 11, 2010 - 04:10 am: |
|
Well,puddle duck, I guess I just need to know how its all going, in hopes your MD 3B sounds like a new ONE (and better.)mine I dare say is giving every color of the rainbow, though love it all the same no choice must do as you have done,(well done) my only hopes is your good self & matt_morehouse along with adsum are within reach all so helpfull.JUST TO TIRED,though do look forward to giving her a new lease of life,Thanks to all. Dev |
puddle_duck
Member
Username: puddle_duck
Post Number: 26
Registered: 02-2010
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 11, 2010 - 05:07 am: |
|
Hi Mirida,
Believe it or not Im still waiting to be launched, We had a fire in the yard and the Hoist was scorched , melting a few hydraulic lines ,and the 40 foot newish motor crusing sitting in the slings, Should be going in this week .
Hopefully the stress test will give good results at this time ,
Sorry to hear yours is giving you more touble than you want , Look on it as a challenge , take your time , if nothing major is broken its , either seals, washers or small items .
Just wondering if you would consider maybe having a ships mechanic run through the engine with you for the day stripping and checking. I did this for my first head gasket and did the second myself. You would have to be specific with him /her.You also end up getting all the tools you need for th cost of paying someone and having change. |
puddle_duck
Member
Username: puddle_duck
Post Number: 27
Registered: 02-2010
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 12, 2010 - 11:23 am: |
|
Hi Guys ,
Just to let you know that Puddle Duck is back in the water and firing on all cyclinders.
A happy ending for the moment. Back to Sailing for now,
talk again |
mirida
Member
Username: mirida
Post Number: 10
Registered: 03-2010
| | Posted on Monday, May 17, 2010 - 06:15 am: |
|
AH,Puddle Duck, so good to hear, feb 2nd entered the unknown into the engine room, your a winner, all the best and happy sailing days ahead,I am sure she whistles sweat music, 'congrats', mirida. |
svaudacious
New member
Username: svaudacious
Post Number: 1
Registered: 12-2011
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 06, 2011 - 02:20 am: |
|
I own a md3b,I rebuilt it in 2002/2003 when I found out the heads were in good shape!The heads were a total rebuild all new resurfaced valves and spring and seat. I took the motor out in pieces! Block to machine shop also a total rebuild.Reassembled in heated shop,ospho the block and painted with hammerrite.Of course full frame rebuilt injector pump and injectors.Crained motor back into my floating winnebago.A vintage 1976 Bayliner 32" Bucanneer.This was to be my 3 monther in Sea of Cortez or Mazatlan!The boat was truck from Westport,Grayland Wa.to Socal Yucca Valley half way to sea of Cortez! Ha ha }}}We all know what mexico is doing now! The motor was assemble with 30 weight oil, I have squited 30 weight oil in the injector hole and rolled the motor every once in awhile.Unfortunally I have not been able to oil it for many years, I just bought a boar scope to see what! The motor has never run,no oil,but assembled with 30 weight,and no water.I dont see in the near furture I will be running this motor,what is the best thing to sray down the cylinders! Thanks Aleeop s/v Audacious! |
matt_morehouse
Senior Member
Username: matt_morehouse
Post Number: 99
Registered: 12-2009
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 06, 2011 - 10:13 am: |
|
Does the motor turn over by hand with the compression released? If so I would squirt Marvel mystery oil in! If not I would use Kroil and let it sit for a week or so!
I must assume you installed new rings! If so I would run the engine under load to seat the rings! See my post above!
Sounds to me you have done a very through rebuild, if it was done professionally you should have no problem! Those old 3-B's are built like cannons! Give them clean fuel, clean air and clean oil and they will run forever!
Good luck! |
svaudacious
New member
Username: svaudacious
Post Number: 2
Registered: 12-2011
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 07, 2011 - 06:39 am: |
|
Thanks MATT! I have talked to other diesel dog
one said can of WD40 in each hole.I herd Marvel now more then anything eles,thats what I will go with!YES new ring all new!those volvo people think hightly $$$ for there parts!! I need to Marvel let set before giving it a turn,I will give it a look with bore scope before I throw the Marvel to it!The injector pump an injector have not been installed but seal holes, not up to speed on shiming pump an timing have book but feel I need to be around some one that knows!! |
bjorne
New member
Username: bjorne
Post Number: 1
Registered: 04-2012
| | Posted on Friday, April 20, 2012 - 05:29 pm: |
|
May be a silly question about the MD3B and engine (and transmission) lubricants: Original instructions state that single grade oils SAE 10W or SAE 20, temperature dependant, are the right lubriants. Single grade oils are not an ordinary commodity these days and modern multigrade oils as a rule are the only choices. I have been using diesel oil SAE 15-40 for years and have been happy with that. But I have heard people say that a single grade oil definitely should be used for the MS transmission. Are there any opinions out there regarding this?
Regards,
Bjorne |
gonzo
Advanced Member
Username: gonzo
Post Number: 35
Registered: 06-2011
| | Posted on Saturday, April 21, 2012 - 11:00 pm: |
|
You can use the same oil as in the engine without problems. Single grade is not necessary. |
bjorne
New member
Username: bjorne
Post Number: 2
Registered: 04-2012
| | Posted on Sunday, April 22, 2012 - 05:01 pm: |
|
Thank you, gonzo, for your reply, as expected. I should be very surprised if a single grade oil be preferred to a modern multigrade oil.
The reason why I asked was that I experience that the transmission does not react quickly enough when I operate the shifter handle, it kind of takes a little while before the propeller turns in the wanted direction. One remedy, an experienced boat friend told me, is to be found in the oil viscosity: Use single grade, e.g. SAE 20 or SAE 30 in this Volvo MS gear box. I doubted this and that doubt has been confirmed by your answer. I will be using SAE 15-40 oils, both in the engine and the gear/transmission box. For the time being this gear shift nuisance does not constitute a big problem, but it might develop into one. And I take it that the oil viscosity is not the culprit. |
diamond
New member
Username: diamond
Post Number: 1
Registered: 04-2013
| | Posted on Thursday, April 18, 2013 - 03:54 am: |
|
Hi there. I happened on this thread while trawling for info on my MD3B and wonder if anyone can give me some tips. At the end of last season while returning from a short trip in my sailboat with no wind I noticed a lot of white steam from the exhaust outlet.I took off the revs and limped home. The engine still started but there were drips of water from No2 air intake and the oil was
grey. I'm hoping it is a head gasket in no2. Can anyone give me some basic tips on removing the head, what tools I would need etc. Problem is I cannot find an engineer who can do the job and my skills are fairly basic... many thanks in advance |
puddle_duck
Advanced Member
Username: puddle_duck
Post Number: 34
Registered: 02-2010
| | Posted on Thursday, April 18, 2013 - 06:12 am: |
|
Hi ,
Had a similar probelm some time back .
Had the first head gasket changed by the boat yard.
If you can get your hands on the volvo penta manual on line it talks you through how to change a head gasket .
The only area to watch is the rockers arms. just take them off and put them on and you might get away without any timing issues.
I changed the second gasket myself ,way cheaper , just a torgue spanner and spanners are all you need basic stuff and keep the area clean where your working. gaskets still available at 80euro .
water in the oil should go if that is the only problem .
have not had any problems since the gaskets were changed. small bit of residue on the exhaust water and bluish white tinge to the exhaust smoke. runs all day still though at 1600rpm without a hicup. fingers crossed.
engine is 1971. |
diamond
New member
Username: diamond
Post Number: 3
Registered: 04-2013
| | Posted on Thursday, April 18, 2013 - 08:07 am: |
|
Very many thanks for your encouraging reply. The engine has up till now been serviced by a Volvo engineer so this is new territory for me.Just one thing - there was water in the sump which I pumped out and flushed with parafin and 2-stroke oil. I couldn't turn the engine with the hand crank so I levered it about one half turn using the flywheel teeth and screwdriver - it did move but wasn't easy. Do you think I could risk turning it over with the starter? |
puddle_duck
Advanced Member
Username: puddle_duck
Post Number: 35
Registered: 02-2010
| | Posted on Thursday, April 18, 2013 - 08:32 am: |
|
the fact that you have water in the sump is ,based on my limited experience , that the gaskets may be leaking water into the oil passages over the laid up season and migrated into the sump . onec you remove the first gasket you will see what i mean there is only about 5mm between the high pressure seal from the combustion chamber and the water cooling passages that surround each cylinder block. oce the gasket starts to rust this gap becomes weaker and weaker until you have afull blow out and the water and oil mix every turn of the engine.
If you turn it over you will either blow the remaining gaskets in the other heads and this might be the only risk , alternately you might strain one of the thin rods that control valve operation under the cyclinder covers and this is a bit more expensive to fix.
If you have a spanner take off the covers on the top of each block . there is just one nut generally nothing falls out if everyhting is ok . have alook and see whats in there.
It will give you an idea .
theres no way you will start the engine with the crank handle. You have to lift the three little levers between each block head the ones with black knobs and then you might be able to turn the engine by crank.
Not sure if drained the engine of water over the winter. good idea in the future with old engine.
I would not turn the engine over without further examination or be prepared to change gaskets if you do.
water dripping from the air inatkes would suggest that water has crossed over the valves in the engine heads through a leak . this means water in the combustion chamber and potential hydraulic compression issues if you try to start the engine doing structural damage and not just gasket failure. |
diamond
Member
Username: diamond
Post Number: 4
Registered: 04-2013
| | Posted on Thursday, April 18, 2013 - 09:21 am: |
|
Understood, thanks. I'll do as you suggest and remove the head on no.2 cylinder which I think is the offender. Will take some photos for reference, (might be of assistance to others) and let you know how I get on.... deep breath |
James McNeil
Visitor
| | Posted on Sunday, July 20, 2014 - 07:47 pm: |
|
I have a 1977 Volvo Penta MD2B and my water cooled transmission went. Trying to replace with a friction transmission but every time I tighten up the flange I loose reverse. Fine in drive,neutral but will not stay in reverse. Pull the flange off all gears seem to be working fine ??? I have it on the bench now and wondering if anyone has any suggestions what I might be doing wrong..so frustrating. Than-you in advance to any suggestions. |
