| Author |
Message |
    
Scott Noseworthy
Senior Member
Username: scott_n
Post Number: 93
Registered: 02-2008
| | Posted on Thursday, May 28, 2009 - 04:48 pm: | 
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Hi Guys I got this engine given to me from the son of a good friend that passed away maybe Richard Day could tell us more about it. Thanks Scott
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Ernie
Senior Member
Username: ernie
Post Number: 977
Registered: 01-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, May 28, 2009 - 06:44 pm: |
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Scott,
It's a very early "B" at my best guess.
Is it one that Arn Avery had?
IF so it is around 1900 and possibly earlier. Mine is 1899. The give away to the very early Model B engines is the bore dia. Is it 4 or 4 1/4? The very early ones are 4 1/4. Also the exhaust out the side opposite the transfer port cover and flywheel with holes instead of spokes are features of the early ones. |
Richard A. Day Jr.
Senior Member
Username: richardday
Post Number: 758
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, May 28, 2009 - 08:07 pm: |
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Another early indicator is how the water pump is mounted. The earliest Bs seem to have the pump strap with a single retaining nut and bolt to adjust the clearance around the eccentric. This meant you have to remove the fly wheel to get the strap off without breaking the strap. The pump body also was clamped to the bronze shaft bushing which extended past the crankcase. Same problem with removal. Later version of the pump strap were two retention screws so you could remove it without pulling the flywheel and later yet the pump body was bolted to capscrews either side of the crankshaft so it could be removed and the bronze bearing was shortened as it was no longer require to retain the pump. I have no idea when the spoked flywheel replaced the disk with holes in it.
Palmer apparently didn't start the last two digits of the serial number indicating the manufacturing date until about 1909. |
Richard A. Day Jr.
Senior Member
Username: richardday
Post Number: 759
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, May 28, 2009 - 08:13 pm: |
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If that is the Arnold Avery engine I have the original bronze connecting rod. This is the 1903 version with the oil hole up the middle of the bronze rod. In the case of this rod it failed at the Big End. I sent Arnold a later B rod in exchange as I wanted to see why that rod failed. I guess that suggests it if about 1903 which is still early. |
RichardDurgee
Senior Member
Username: richarddurgee
Post Number: 2109
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, May 28, 2009 - 08:33 pm: |
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*
What year did the tags change from Mianus to CosCob ??
** |
Richard A. Day Jr.
Senior Member
Username: richardday
Post Number: 760
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Friday, May 29, 2009 - 09:39 am: |
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I have no evidence when that happened. They moved the boat building operation to the Cos Cob site in 1901 according to newspaper articles and their engine operation at a later date. Seems to me the "new machine shop" at Cos Cob was built about 1907-1910. Ernie may have a clew when they closed out the UPPER WORKS as the dam built down stream for the railroad flooded the dam at the UPPER Works. I forget the date the RR. dam was built. That RR. dam shows how company lore can be full of holes. Henry Zerbarini, Palmer Bros. 1922-1968 took me about 1965 to the RR Dam site and pointed to the far bank saying that was the location of the first factory. I could not believe it as the banking was so steep I did not see how any building would have been in such a location. Ernie started digging and found the real location was about 2 miles up stream and its dam was no longer visible. Henry meant well and most of his recollections have been shown to be supported by other facts. Raynal Bolling 1934-1968 had told me the Upper Works were about 2-3 miles up stream from the Cos Cob location. I passed that distance to Ernie and he was soon able to nail it down. |
Richard A. Day Jr.
Senior Member
Username: richardday
Post Number: 761
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Friday, May 29, 2009 - 09:43 am: |
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I found a B con rod marked fits the B and Q. I found YT con rods marked fits YT and Q. Hence the YT conrod fits the B. |
Scott Noseworthy
Senior Member
Username: scott_n
Post Number: 94
Registered: 02-2008
| | Posted on Friday, May 29, 2009 - 05:22 pm: |
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Yes this was Arnold Engine thanks for the great info will have it at the Mystic Seaport this August |
Richard A. Day Jr.
Senior Member
Username: richardday
Post Number: 762
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, May 30, 2009 - 08:37 pm: |
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Unfortunately I misspoke. I have attached a couple of photos of the connecting rods involved. I think Arnold's is marked August 1992 That I think would have been the first year Barbara and I attended the Mystic show. That would have been when I got the broken B con rod but it is not the 1903 hollow shaft unit. It has a solid shaft. It is sort of fuzzy now but the hollow shaft did get involved in our discussion. I assume Palmer came out with the hollow shaft in 1903 as they were having failures with the solid shaft con rod. Of course nothing changed until they started in 1909/10 mixing lube oil in the fuel. I cannot find the B con rod saying it fits B and Q but I did find the YT conrod saying it fits Q and YT.
I think Ernie is right it is a very early B and it probably is pre 1903 rather than post 1903. I don't remember but I expect one will find a YT con rod in the B now as that is what I gave Arnold. Still have a few NOS YT con rods if anyone needs one. Sorry about the confusion. Afraid it goes with the age group!!!
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Scott Noseworthy
Senior Member
Username: scott_n
Post Number: 116
Registered: 02-2008
| | Posted on Friday, September 25, 2009 - 05:20 pm: |
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Need Help I want to fix the crack in the water jacket but I am stuck. How do you remove the timmer tripping block out of the cylinder does it just unscrew? don't want to break it. Also I think I need a pistin the one that came with this engine is slightly under size thanks scott
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Ernie
Senior Member
Username: ernie
Post Number: 1056
Registered: 01-2002
| | Posted on Friday, September 25, 2009 - 08:29 pm: |
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Scott,
The timer adjuster just unscrews. The piston is definatly undersize as many years ago I cut it in the lathe because the cylinder is hourglass shape from internal rust. Arnold just wanted it to turn over. The bottom of the waterjacket is or was solid with rust. That is why the lower ignitor/waterpump rod guide is pushed out.
By the way what is the bore size?
Also that color isn't from Palmer. When Arnold had it apart it was completly stripped of all paint.
From what I remember that color on it now is:
1 can rust oleum dark blue
1 can rust oleum hunter green
1 can rust oleum some other color. I don't remember what. But maybe black
Arnold used that color on several of his engines
Hope this helps
Ernie |
Scott Noseworthy
Senior Member
Username: scott_n
Post Number: 117
Registered: 02-2008
| | Posted on Saturday, September 26, 2009 - 08:16 am: |
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Thanks Ernie I guess the only way to fix this engine is to sleeve the bore. the bore is 3&3/4" |
J.B. Castagnos
Senior Member
Username: jb_castagnos
Post Number: 473
Registered: 07-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, September 26, 2009 - 08:19 pm: |
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Scott, do all welding-heat treatments before you have it sleeved. |
Ernie
Senior Member
Username: ernie
Post Number: 1057
Registered: 01-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, September 26, 2009 - 08:34 pm: |
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Scott,
Some (ifs) bofore you consider sleeving
If you get the water jacket cleaned out
If you can get a standard Palmer 3 3/4 piston
with some carefull measuring I have a micrometer adjusting cylinder hoan that we can most likely straighten out he bore with as currently it isn't oversize. At least not that bad.
Ernie |
J.B. Castagnos
Senior Member
Username: jb_castagnos
Post Number: 474
Registered: 07-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, September 26, 2009 - 09:49 pm: |
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Sleeves usually come .030" under, is the piston smaller than that? If so you could go to the next smaller sleeve and bore it to fit the piston, the sleeve would be thinner but should work fine for a show engine. Be sure that the piston is cut smaller for clearance in the ring lands to allow for expansion when hot. |
Scott Noseworthy
Senior Member
Username: scott_n
Post Number: 118
Registered: 02-2008
| | Posted on Monday, September 28, 2009 - 08:47 am: |
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I miked the bore and it not that bad any one know were I mite find a piston Thanks Scott |
Ernie
Senior Member
Username: ernie
Post Number: 1059
Registered: 01-2002
| | Posted on Monday, September 28, 2009 - 11:14 am: |
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Scott,
Measure the OD of the piston and the top of the shiny part of the bore and then give me a call.
Also measure the width of the ring grooves and the actual width of the rings. Then we can see what we may be able to do.
Ernie |
