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Message |
    
Blair Goss
Senior Member
Username: bgoss
Post Number: 104
Registered: 12-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, April 05, 2009 - 06:52 pm: | 
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This is definitely one of the Detroit designs, but can we nail down which tag it should have?
Cast iron water pump, six-hole flywheel and a strengthening web between the bolt holes on the base mounting flanges.
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Thanks, Blair. |
Searcher
Senior Member
Username: searcher
Post Number: 298
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, April 05, 2009 - 08:52 pm: |
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I have an engine that appears identical to yours, not close, but identical. The only differences I see between them are the hex nut on top of the water pump, and the water pump strap. I think those two items may be repairs or replacments on your engine. Mine has a Detroit Engine Works tag. I bet the name tag from mine would screw right onto your engine without modification based on the screw holes and the faint shadow left where your tag was. The casting number on both exhausts is 5BC. Is the number on your cylinder 1b and on the crankcase 3B? The few Detroit Motor Car Supply Co. engines I have seen had 5BC1 on the water jackets but the other casting numbers are quite different from those on these DEW engines. I don't know if there is any consistency in casting numbers between these and any other members of the Detroit family.
Mine has what I believe to be the serial number stamped on top. Look in the area between the spark plug and the point where the water jacket bolts together with the exhaust jacket. Mine is stamped there with an 80 in fairly large numbers but I have to get it just right in the light to see it. |
RichardDurgee
Senior Member
Username: richarddurgee
Post Number: 2048
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Monday, April 06, 2009 - 04:24 pm: |
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*
When these engs came on the market in 1906 they were under the same companies umbrella (The Scherer/ Wadsworth Conglomerate), there were minor differences but the flywheel holes did sort of indicate the different brands ? I believe because of the narrow mounting flanges that this is a very early eng and my opinion only is that its chances of being a Columbia are the highest probability, although I have seen this 3 Large/3 small hole wheel on the Detroit. I have searched extensively to try to get a shot of an eng with the cast web brace but could not find it on a Detroit, Sandow,or Termaat Monahan- there was several off brands that were also from these same molds and I could not find a photo of a 1906-08 Columbia !! The Detroit, Columbia, Sandow and some others used the exact sized tag on the front of the eng in the same location ? As This large business entity got into financial and other difficulties I believe that the integration of parts became more commonplace.
Thats my 2cents or 18 cents worth when adjusted for inflation !
1911
* |
John Davis
Senior Member
Username: johnny
Post Number: 180
Registered: 03-2006
| | Posted on Monday, April 06, 2009 - 10:39 pm: |
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Just finished updating the Detroit Engine Works & related companies history page on my website a few weeks back. New information all through out the page. Just thought some of you collectors might be interested.
http://www.antiquengines.com/Detroit_Engine_Works_Menu.htm |
miro forest
Senior Member
Username: miro
Post Number: 371
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 07, 2009 - 08:58 am: |
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JOhn - I've seen parts of this before,
but this is a WOW !
You deserve a gold star for the work - well done.
Miro |
RichardDurgee
Senior Member
Username: richarddurgee
Post Number: 2049
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 07, 2009 - 09:21 am: |
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*
John
Thanks for the post, your site is outstanding work on these engine mfgrs,it also looks like the more info thats brought out the more difficult it is to put an exact name to a tagless engine ?
* |
Ernie
Senior Member
Username: ernie
Post Number: 950
Registered: 01-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 07, 2009 - 09:45 am: |
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John,
I have refered to your site for years.
You keep making it better.
Many thanks
Ernie |
Searcher
Senior Member
Username: searcher
Post Number: 299
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 07, 2009 - 11:02 am: |
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Here are three photos of my Detroit Engine Works. It has the six hole flywheel and the webbed base. I can see no evidence that it has ever been altered other than the oil cups and primer cup having been replaced and the mixer removed. The tag was apparently polished so often the detail is hard to see unless the light is just so. I take the number stamped in the top as the serial number. It is 80 despite looking like a 30 in the photo.
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John Davis
Senior Member
Username: johnny
Post Number: 181
Registered: 03-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 07, 2009 - 11:36 am: |
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Thanks for the compliments everyone. It's a passion that I'm really hooked on. I think I got the basic history figured out for Detroit Engine Works and its related companies but I didn't do it all myself. A few other people have done a lot of research also and we shared our information. Now I just wish I could get a hold on figuring out the different Detroit engine castings and what manufacture made what. It appears they made so many different configurations and styles.
Who knows if we keep researching maybe some day we might learn the differences in the Detroit engines. |
Blair Goss
Senior Member
Username: bgoss
Post Number: 107
Registered: 12-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 07, 2009 - 09:13 pm: |
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Thanks to everyone for the help. Great website John.
Searcher, you're absolutely correct. Our engines must be nearly identical. Right down to the number stamped on the top of the block. Yes, ours has a large 80 stamped on top also...
Thanks again, Blair. |
John Davis
Senior Member
Username: johnny
Post Number: 182
Registered: 03-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 08, 2009 - 05:29 pm: |
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Does anyone have any marine engine specs from an original DEW,DMCSC,CEC catalog or literature? I have the DEW stationary engine specs need marine specs for all the different horse power engines. |
Robert B. Price
Senior Member
Username: rbprice
Post Number: 237
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Monday, April 13, 2009 - 09:39 pm: |
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John - I have a 1911 full line Detroit catalog and a 1915 Installation and Instructions booklet in my collection.
Ping me or call 518.895.8954 if they would help.
RB |
Searcher
Senior Member
Username: searcher
Post Number: 300
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Monday, April 13, 2009 - 10:18 pm: |
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Blair,
Following your post, I have been pondering the 80 stamped on both our engines. I have come up with two possibilites. First, the engines may have been assembled in batchs that had identical configurations and each engine in the batch was stamped with the 80. The more plausible explanation is that the workman that morning, bleary eyed from carousing into the early morning hours, inadvertantly stamped the same serial number onto two adjacent engines. If that is the case, one of our engines should have been #79 or #81. Now, that is a pretty neat thought, that both both engines might still exist after 100 years. |
William Schaller
Senior Member
Username: billschaller
Post Number: 252
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 14, 2009 - 08:27 am: |
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is the 80 below the paint, or above? if it was stamped after painting, than it could be a jobbers mark, a dealers mark, or a shipping mark, etc. |
Searcher
Senior Member
Username: searcher
Post Number: 301
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 14, 2009 - 09:48 am: |
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I had to wind this 63 year old body into a contortionist's position in order to manuever a flashlight and hand lense where I could discern whether the stamp occurred before or after painting. Ain't no tellin' but I would guess before. However, once I got into that position with the hand lense, I could see that a couple of reflections off imperfections gave the impression that the number was 80. I now suspect it is in fact 30 rather than 80. Oh, the things we do for this old iron. |
John Davis
Senior Member
Username: johnny
Post Number: 183
Registered: 03-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 14, 2009 - 11:29 am: |
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I have been trying to figure this out myself. My little 2.5hp DEW engine has a large number 7 stamped on the top of the cylinder. Also has small numbers 236 stamped on the face of the flywheel and in the end of the crankshaft. Which is the serial number or what is what?
I have five parts catalogs, four are for DEW stationary engines and one is for DMCSC (Sandow) stationary & Marine. All five catalogs state this:
"When sending in you order for repairs,state the number stamped on top of the cylinder, face of flywheel or on name plate"
Not sure why my engine has two sets of different numbers? Maybe someone switched out the cylinder from another parts engine? Who knows.
Robert I will be in touch with you about the catalogs. Thanks for the reply. |
Blair Goss
Senior Member
Username: bgoss
Post Number: 108
Registered: 12-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 14, 2009 - 06:55 pm: |
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I just took a look at ours. The '80' appears to be stamped under the little bit of paint that remains.
As I walked around the engine with my head half-cocked, I began to wonder...is there a chance that instead of '80', the stamp is '08' - as in 1908? Any thoughts? |
John Davis
Senior Member
Username: johnny
Post Number: 184
Registered: 03-2006
| | Posted on Friday, June 26, 2009 - 07:03 am: |
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Blair,
I think your number is 80 or 30 because my Detroit marine engine has a number stamped in the same exact place as yours and is a single digit number 7. If looking at my engine just as your photo is oriented the 7 is upright. I do know that Detroit Engine Works loved to use number systems and code names for their engines. I will try to post a photo of my number here in the next day or so. I just noticed on the outer diameter of your output shaft of your engine there appears to be a 80 or 08 stamped. Am I correct or not? It may be a 08 who knows.. |
Blair Goss
Senior Member
Username: bgoss
Post Number: 117
Registered: 12-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, July 05, 2009 - 08:05 pm: |
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John, I took another look at the output shaft. It is actually a cast number rather than stamped. Number is 9BC. Thanks again for your help. |
Jim Parrott
Senior Member
Username: jim_parrott
Post Number: 198
Registered: 06-2009
| | Posted on Sunday, December 16, 2018 - 08:18 pm: |
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I have this 2 HP Detroit type engine serial number 16 stamped on crank and flywheel. It has the two piece fuel injection and flyweight governor controlling the spark.
There is no indication that it ever had a tag on it. Any tagged engines out there like this, and if so are they tagged Marine or Stationary? Also any tips on removing single layers of paint?
Jim
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miro forest
Senior Member
Username: miro
Post Number: 1016
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, December 16, 2018 - 09:37 pm: |
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Jim - that's a great score - nice engine and looks to be un-abused. plus it has a really nice 2 spigot oiler.
Marine engine don't have governors - don't need 'em.
Is there a thrust bearing on the output shaft?
If not then, likely a stationary engine.
That paint looks like it ought to be preserved - still in good condition considering its age. I wouldn't mess with it.
Miro |
Jim Parrott
Senior Member
Username: jim_parrott
Post Number: 199
Registered: 06-2009
| | Posted on Monday, December 17, 2018 - 06:48 am: |
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Miro,
It was a little rough, needed a cylinder sleeve, timer work, oiler glass, and general sorting. This is my only injected engine and am happy with the way it runs.
It does have a thrust bearing, but I think most of the single flywheel Stationary Detroit�s with water pumps do. It would work fine as a Marine by simply tightening the governor spring adjustment not shown in the picture.
There is some black paint I would like to remove to expose the original green green paint underneath.
Jim |
Jim Parrott
Senior Member
Username: jim_parrott
Post Number: 200
Registered: 06-2009
| | Posted on Monday, December 17, 2018 - 08:23 am: |
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Miro,
A short video for your viewing pleasure.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=H7lgaR069bU
Jim |
miro forest
Senior Member
Username: miro
Post Number: 1017
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Friday, December 21, 2018 - 11:24 am: |
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Sure looks nice chugging away -
Miro |
William Schaller
Senior Member
Username: billschaller
Post Number: 700
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 19, 2019 - 08:12 pm: |
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One of my goals is to get a detroit fuel injected motor going, and then trying to get it to run on weird fuels. Like alcohol, lamp oil, whale blubber, bear grease, etc. |
John Davis
Senior Member
Username: johnny
Post Number: 600
Registered: 03-2006
| | Posted on Saturday, February 23, 2019 - 08:38 pm: |
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Jim, Thank's for posting the pic's of your Detroit engine. It's only the second or third Detroit marine style engine with the early two piece fuel feeder I have seen. Not to many around, very nice original looking engine. I watched the video and by the way your engine is running I'm guessing that you have the governor spring really tight so the governor can't work & the timer appears to be fully advanced. I have a few of these Detroit engines with the make & break ignition like yours and they normally sound just like a Maytag washing machine. Fire & coast, Fire & coast. Your engine is just chugging right along, no coasting. Sounds really nice. Hard to say if your engine was originally a marine or stationary engine but I would guess that it was a marine/stationary factor conversion engine. Don't think they would have wasted the extra cost of putting a governor weight on the engine if it was a marine engine. |
John Davis
Senior Member
Username: johnny
Post Number: 601
Registered: 03-2006
| | Posted on Saturday, February 23, 2019 - 09:31 pm: |
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I have only seen the vertical web on the engine mounts on the early marine engines 1906,1907 models. However seems as though most of the early marine engines did not have the vertical web. So I'm guessing that at some point they must have had a few of the mount's crack and added the vertical web modification. All of the later model Detroit engine's with the square inspection cover have a much wider engine mount flange with no vertical web.
On the subject of the number of holes in the flywheel. I have original DEW marine catalogs, CEC marine catalogs, DMCSC catalog and advertisement that show they all had flywheels with 3,4 and 6 holes in them. So I don't think the number of holes in the flywheel really tells us anything. The different number of holes were done in certain years but we don't know what years. |
John Davis
Senior Member
Username: johnny
Post Number: 602
Registered: 03-2006
| | Posted on Saturday, February 23, 2019 - 09:40 pm: |
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John Davis
Senior Member
Username: johnny
Post Number: 603
Registered: 03-2006
| | Posted on Saturday, February 23, 2019 - 09:43 pm: |
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John Davis
Senior Member
Username: johnny
Post Number: 604
Registered: 03-2006
| | Posted on Saturday, February 23, 2019 - 10:29 pm: |
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A few photo's of Detroit Engine Works early engines with the vertical web on the engine mounts & six holes in the flywheel.
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John Davis
Senior Member
Username: johnny
Post Number: 605
Registered: 03-2006
| | Posted on Saturday, February 23, 2019 - 11:39 pm: |
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Blair Goss,
I think you will find that your engine was manufactured by Detroit Engine Works. I'm fairly sure that DMCSC (Sandow) and Columbia Engine Co. Did not start selling engines until around 1910-1911. Detroit Motor Car Supply Company was around as early as 1902 manufacturing car parts & accessories but did not sell stationary (Sandow) farm engines or marine engines until later. If someone finds adverts or literature that shows either company was selling engines earlier then 1910 please let me know so I could add this info to the Detroit website. I have original literature that shows Detroit Engine Works sold engines as early as 1906. I believe your engine was manufactured before 1910 due to having the small threaded pipe plug inspection hole and the narrow engine mounts with the vertical web. Don't think you will find the small threaded pipe plug or narrow engine mounts on a Sandow or Columbia engine. |
Jim Parrott
Senior Member
Username: jim_parrott
Post Number: 206
Registered: 06-2009
| | Posted on Sunday, February 24, 2019 - 12:44 pm: |
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Bill and John,
The above video was one of the first runs since sorting the engine. The governor does kick in when accelerated above the idling range. I have since readjusted the fuel level and tightened up the throttle friction. It now has a nice show engine idle for a single flywheel engine.
One of these days, I�ll try some alternative fuels and see how it works out. I�ll just try whatever I have laying around the shop.
Jim |
