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richarddurgee
Senior Member
Username: richarddurgee
Post Number: 1844
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 21, 2008 - 07:45 pm: | 
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1901 Ignition ?
The square box on top front of cylinder is, I believe, a low tension magneto driven by the motion of the curved rod from the crankshaft, I have seen this exact mechanism on another turn of the century marine motor-- has anyone seen one or have a catalog with one in it ??
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richardday
Senior Member
Username: richardday
Post Number: 672
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 21, 2008 - 08:05 pm: |
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Richard the Sagamore had a similar box enclosing its igniter drive as I remembe it. Danny Thomas had a Sagmore which I saw probably 30 years ago. Don't have a photo of it. |
richarddurgee
Senior Member
Username: richarddurgee
Post Number: 1845
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 22, 2008 - 09:17 am: |
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Dick
Thanks good memory, I looked up Sagamore and in 1905 Publication found this article, no photo yet, You're right on with it being the make and break ignition, I now recall a few other engs that had box covers over the mechanism and Sintz & Truscott had ones that also had a hinged access door !
Sagamore article 1905
My search is still to find what was in these similar looking boxs on these 1897 Riotte Marine Engines That the one ad claims electric igntion without batteries ??
Best detail I could get considering ads are a hundred and eleven yrs old !
C.C.Riotte ads 1897
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richardday
Senior Member
Username: richardday
Post Number: 673
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 22, 2008 - 10:22 am: |
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Another footnote to history. Back in the 60s and 70 I suscribed to National Fisherman and in one article the family of the Sagamore company annouced they had one last engine still in the crate and they would donate it to any collector who wanted it. Needless to say I wrote a letter to the address given and got a short note back they had decided to keep it in the family. I wonder where it is today? |
thomas
Senior Member
Username: thomas
Post Number: 303
Registered: 07-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 22, 2008 - 07:53 pm: |
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If you recall your business history, there was a big government push right around the turn of the 20th century to stop all the mergers and monopolies. Before these actions you could buy loose electrons by the gallon just about on every street corner. I'm sure the C. C. Riotte ignition system (box with pipe) was supposed to be connected to a 2 gal can filled with these (now unavailable) "loose" electrons. All the "Ignition" box did was use the rod from the crankshaft to open a really tiny "jet" valve which had a spring loaded "rammer" that shot a few hundred or so of the electrons into the combustion chamber causing a pretty healthy spark. I seem to remember seeing a display once in the basement of the Smithsonian "Man History Museum" 20 years ago about this.
There was a story told (with a snicker) about an inebriated Rudolph Diesel filling up the free electron jug with olive oil by accident....well,...I guess it could have happened..... |
richarddurgee
Senior Member
Username: richarddurgee
Post Number: 1846
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 22, 2008 - 07:56 pm: |
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Interesting when I put "Sagamore" into my trade name list 4 company names popped up !I haven't had time to really look into this Old Marine engine name but this is what came up!
1. 1905 "Consolidated Box & Machine Company" like the article above.
2. 1906 "Briggs & Wade"
3. 1909 "Sagamore Engine Company"
4. 1913 "Sagamore motor Works" Named in 1913 marine engine index of manufacturers
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solarrog
Senior Member
Username: solarrog
Post Number: 324
Registered: 03-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 22, 2008 - 08:02 pm: |
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ah, open the back door I think the fumes are building up in your shop |
richarddurgee
Senior Member
Username: richarddurgee
Post Number: 1847
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 22, 2008 - 08:19 pm: |
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Thomas I was posting at the same time you were and I am really taken with your answer. I study old engine business history every day and my recaller isn't working like it used to but I have to admit I have not heard of these liquid electrons ?? it certainly answers a big part of the question posed in that all the photos of these old engines show a pipe going to the "spark box" for lack of a better description. If my leg isn't being pulled a bit here do you remember any trade names etc that I could research, wouldn't some of the very early stationary engs have used this ignition system ??
Would be great to revive this technology I could run my old 1895-97 Empire Marine Engine once again and also having thoughts of putting a few drops in the orange juice at breakfast ??
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thomas
Senior Member
Username: thomas
Post Number: 304
Registered: 07-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, October 23, 2008 - 09:04 am: |
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When I searched the web just now I could only find the use of "loose electrons" connected to the Pflugle Corp (they own a chain of adult gift shops). Not sure if that's relevant. This technology will most likely take it's place with the amorphic solar cell and the fusion reactor as
projects for a different generation...... |
thomas
Senior Member
Username: thomas
Post Number: 305
Registered: 07-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, October 23, 2008 - 10:25 am: |
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In all seriousness, is it possible that someone could have developed a pizeoelectric spark source back then? I don't know enough about that technology. Could you use a raw quartz crystal or does it require something really special? |
richarddurgee
Senior Member
Username: richarddurgee
Post Number: 1848
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, October 23, 2008 - 12:09 pm: |
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The more I think about it I Sorta liked the idea of a tad of liquid spark in the orange juice !
Well back to thinning the juice with Vodka and trying to figure out how the spark got out of the box ??
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bartropr
Advanced Member
Username: bartropr
Post Number: 35
Registered: 06-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, October 23, 2008 - 04:25 pm: |
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Isn't the door opening to a burner which heats a platinum tube going into the cylinder as the early(1896-1900's)Daimler petrol engines had (hot tube ignition)? The pipe (best seen on the 8hp engine on Richards post of the 22nd October 09.17am) will be the feed from the pressure tank to the control valve of the burner. There is still a Daimler car with this type of engine in a Coventry(UK)museum which is still operational |
john_archibald
Senior Member
Username: john_archibald
Post Number: 82
Registered: 08-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, October 23, 2008 - 08:00 pm: |
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It is not too difficult to make a piezo-electric quartz crystal. I almost made one a few years ago, but got side tracked. I had the crystal slabbed out on my diamond saw. I had started to lap its two parallel surfaces flat and smooth. Next step was to aluminize it in my high vacuum system. I normally aluminize telescope mirrors in this system, so doing a small quartz, SiO2, crystal would have been easy.
Had I aluminized the crystal the next thing to do would have been to attach electrodes to the two flat surfaces. That's easy if you just sandwich it between two pieces of soft copper or aluminum foil and solder or spot weld wires to the foil.
An amateur can easily make one of these even if a vacuum system is not available. Silver can be deposited on the quartz crystal faces in a wet chemical method developed by John Brashear in the 1800s. Brashear, an amateur, was the leading lensmaker for large telescopes in the world. He was from Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania.
Archibald
Northfield, Minnesota
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richarddurgee
Senior Member
Username: richarddurgee
Post Number: 1849
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Friday, October 24, 2008 - 11:39 am: |
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I Appreciate the input, these are old photos of "Empire" single like in photo ad above, it was converted to carburetor and spark plug at some time, I will disassemble it and post photos here, maybe collectively some answers will be found as to the original design of this earliest of gas marine engines ??
1890's Empire
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thomas
Senior Member
Username: thomas
Post Number: 306
Registered: 07-2002
| | Posted on Friday, October 24, 2008 - 07:56 pm: |
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OK....What's that old brass era car in the background? |
richarddurgee
Senior Member
Username: richarddurgee
Post Number: 1851
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Friday, October 24, 2008 - 08:25 pm: |
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"Clairesville Two Seater" One of the first three made.
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richarddurgee
Senior Member
Username: richarddurgee
Post Number: 1852
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Friday, October 24, 2008 - 10:18 pm: |
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Thomas
This site should shed some light on the origin of the "Clairesville".
http://www.publish.csiro.au/?act=view_file&file_id=SA0402057.pdf
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richarddurgee
Senior Member
Username: richarddurgee
Post Number: 1853
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, October 25, 2008 - 07:41 am: |
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Sillyness aside I don't know what the brass era car was, the photos were taken yrs ago by the previous owner of the engine ?
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