| Author |
Message |
    
AFDeSimone
| | Posted on Saturday, June 05, 2004 - 01:47 pm: | 
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I'm interested in opinions for replacement candidate for my 1984 Palmer P60 4 cyl 28 HP gasoline inboard. I have a 1974 Islander 30' MKII and it seemed to push the boat along well for the last 20 years. I could rebuild the P60, but finding parts will be brutal and I know there have been a couple of technology improvements since WWII, when this thing was designed by International Harvester. Bye bye, updraft carb! See You Later, Flathead! What about switch to Diesel? Resale Value? Used? Rebuilt? |
Eddie
| | Posted on Saturday, June 05, 2004 - 04:01 pm: |
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AF,
I have a P-60 and asked the same question. One reply recommended Isuzu as the best value. Yanmar seems to be the over all favorite, but it's a little steep in price. I know of one who repowered with a Kabuto because of low price and is very happy with it for 4 years so far.
When you go to sell it people don't want the gas engines but may put up with them if they are on a tight budget. To get your money's worth at resale you'll probably do OK if you use the new engine 5 or more years before selling. You're looking at $10,000 + for a new one installed.
If you reengine I hope you'll get the P-60 to a good home. Especially the critical parts like the exaust manifold. Some P-60 diehards out there holding on to their engines.
Eddie |
Brett WYnkoop
Visitor
| | Posted on Saturday, July 10, 2004 - 01:37 pm: |
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Greeting-
I have also been looking at repowering
as getting parts is tough. It is a great engine, but I think that I may repower in the next couple
of years. The cheapest marine diesel I have found
is a marinized kabuto tractor engine out of the UK.
There are several US distributors. Yanmar has
an industrial line that has a 10HP unit that looks
like it will work, but when the yanmar dealers heard that I wanted to put it in a boat they
did not want to talk to me anymore. I think the
Yanmar L10 is about $1800. Of coures you must come up with a way to couple it to the propshaft and build some sort of reverse gear system, but I
think the clever fellow could do it for a small
amount of cash.
Another alternative would be one of the SLOW RPM
2 cylinder diesels made in India or China, but parts for them would be real hard to come by I think.
I may go with a diesel/electric drive myself. It
seems that I can put together an electric drive system including battery power for about 1 hour
for about $2000. The only problem is that more
powered time would require much more weight in batteries, so I am now looking for 1 KW diesel
genset to use to produce electricity for motor running and battery charging. Heck if diesel-electric is good enough for submarines and
tug boats it should work for my boat!
One other alternative I have toyed with is a 10hp
gasoline engine. Briggs and Stratton as well
as several other makers have single cylinder
engines in this range that should work and they
are only in the $200-500 range. They are air cooled, so you have to have a blower running forcing air past the engine, but it should work.
Once again with this solution there is the problem of how to couple to the shaft and get reverse.
I was also told by one diesel dealer that air cooled engines were illegal on boats for inboards.
I think he is wrong as I raced on a 1/4 ton MORC
boat when in collage and it had a single cylinder
gas air cooled engine for it's aux.
I have had some thought that a chain drive system
using parts from the world of go-carts might provide a way to couple one of these small engines
to the prop shaft.
-Brett |
eddie
Member
Username: eddie
Post Number: 4
Registered: 04-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, July 10, 2004 - 04:20 pm: |
|
Brett,
The air-cooled is out of the question. You would have huge problems with heat and exaust not to mention safety.
A friend replaced a blown up diesel with a marine Kabuto, choosing it by it's low price. Been running fine for 4 years now.
The diesel electric sounds futuristic and somewhat experimental. I don't know of any sailing auxilliary aplications but I understand the theory. Among the unconventional ideas, that one sounds best to me.
In my situation I decided to care for the Palmer and get as much life as I can out of it, but in the event that it required to be removed to be worked on, I'd throw in the towel and replace it with a diesel.
Eddie |
Brett Wynkoop
Visitor
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 13, 2004 - 02:59 am: |
|
Greeting-
Just got a bunch of material from Briggs &
Stratton. It seems they have a small water
cooled line of gas and diesel motors in the
18-25 hp range. The smallest diesel looks to
have specs comparable to the P60. I do not know
price, but I think that if it could be mated to
the transmission from the P60 that the only thing
one would need to do to "marinize it", would be
to replace the radiator with a heat exchanger
and add a raw water pump either via belt, or the
PTO.
I found my palmer manual over the weekend. It
lists the P60 as 360 lbs with transmission,
380 lbs with V transmission. I have the straight.
The B&S diesel is 180 lbs (no transmission).
It would seem to me that the B&S diesel would
end up being lighter than the P60 when all
is said and done. That would probably improve
both motoring and sailing performance.
Tomorrow I will call B&S engineering and ask
at what angles thier diesel motors can operate.
-Brett |
richardday
Senior Member
Username: richardday
Post Number: 257
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 13, 2004 - 08:01 am: |
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Don't forget you will need a proper marine carburetor with backfire trap if it is gasoline driven. |
eddie
Member
Username: eddie
Post Number: 7
Registered: 04-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 13, 2004 - 12:03 pm: |
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Brett,
I dunno. The B&S situation sounds like a can of worms.
Eddie |
Brett Wynkoop
Visitor
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 13, 2004 - 01:34 pm: |
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Why would it be a can of worms to drop
a 15 or so HP diesel into the boat? Am I missing
something about the situation. Is there a real
difference other than cooling between a marine
diesel and a tractor diesel?
I do think that it might be more problems to use
one of the gas line as Richard pointed out
one would need a proper marine carb with
backfire arrestor, and I am not sure what
that entails, or if they can even be had for
small engines these days.
What does the connection between the Palmer
and the transmission consist of? My manual
has no expanded views, or pictures of the
engine minus transmission.
BTW please do not think I am trying to be
dificult or argue on any of this. I am just
brainstorming using my limited knowldge of
marine power setups. Afterall I am a sailor,
not a marine engineer, though there are times
I wish I had persued an engineer's license
instead of a deck license when I was in school.
At least then I would be an expert on diesels
and probably would have repowered my boat
myself already! 
-Brett |
richardday
Senior Member
Username: richardday
Post Number: 258
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, July 15, 2004 - 09:12 am: |
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Keep in mind prop size and diesel torque/RPM. The P-60 OXKB was designed for higher RPM than a lot of diesels which means that with the P-60 to get the speed down you needed a reduction gear aft of the OXKB. Consider the shaft diameter and prop apperture. There is more to this than simply plunking in a diesel engine. Consider what the current gas tank is made of and if it is compatable with diesel. Have at it but you have to balance all these aspects if you are going to be sucessful. |
eddie
Member
Username: eddie
Post Number: 9
Registered: 04-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, July 15, 2004 - 06:31 pm: |
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Richard,
Great pointers to keep in mind. Thanks.
Eddie |
Dan Misener
Visitor
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 19, 2005 - 08:19 pm: |
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Help...
I am the proud owner of a Columbia 34MKII with a P60 that has been on the hard for 10Yrs. I would like to re-power, but would like to go sailing more. Anybody have any thoughts? |
eddie
Advanced Member
Username: eddie
Post Number: 38
Registered: 04-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 19, 2005 - 09:26 pm: |
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Dan,
If you're thinking about repowering, maybe you should consider a new diesel soon. That way you can get more of your money's worth out of your investment. I had an Ericson 32 with a P60. It was a sweet running engine but I had to sell boat and took a beating because of the gas engine.
Yanmar is a good diesel. A less expensive one is Kabuto. A friend of mine repowered with a Kabuto and has been doin well with it for 5 years now.
If you get another engine, I suggest salvaging at least the exaust manifold as they are virtually irreplaceable and people with surviving P60s could sure use it.
Eddie |
bill_f
New member
Username: bill_f
Post Number: 1
Registered: 09-2004
| | Posted on Friday, January 21, 2005 - 09:57 pm: |
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Dan, E-mail me off line [email protected] or [email protected]. I too have a Columbia 34 mkII with a palmer p-60...I've done alot of research...for the money a Vetus engine...Made in sweden is about 5 grand for a 27 hp diesal...marinized by vetus is actually a mitsubishie? spelling engine...anyway I can help you nurse a year or two out of your palmer....the transmission and v-drive match up to the vetus...I also have a couple of manifolds....Bill |
Skip
Visitor
| | Posted on Friday, September 02, 2005 - 08:30 pm: |
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looking to sell complete p60 engine. good condition 1400 hrs. exhaust manifold problem, froze up last winter. |
eddie
Senior Member
Username: eddie
Post Number: 71
Registered: 04-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, September 03, 2005 - 12:35 pm: |
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Without a functioning exaust manifold you basically have an anchor. Some of the parts may be of interest as spares such as water pump and trim, fuel pump, thermostat housing, water outlet fitting (atop the cylinder head) and rebuildable crankshaft. Bulk of engine is scrap metal. |
ernie
Senior Member
Username: ernie
Post Number: 569
Registered: 01-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, September 03, 2005 - 04:00 pm: |
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I have a manifold. If interested contact me via e-mail for more info. |
Rusty A.
Visitor
| | Posted on Thursday, January 19, 2006 - 09:28 am: |
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I found yet another Columbia Mk II with a Palmer P-60. This one in the Bahamas where limited mechanics around. I'm thinking of buying it as a project. Boat in sound shape other than the engine soi the question of how to repower economically comes up. Any new infor from these posts and what replacement is recommended?? Thanks |
Eddie Ross
Senior Member
Username: eddie
Post Number: 90
Registered: 04-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, January 19, 2006 - 11:17 am: |
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A friend of mine repowered with a new 3 cylinder Kubota. He has been doing well with it since. Suzuki is another low cost alternative. Yanmar is a favorite but you pay more for it.If you pull out the P-60 engine , strip the exuast manifold, water pump and trim, distributor,thermostat housing, and the water hose fitting atop the cylinder head as these ar of value to those maintaining old P-60's. |
Richard Shapiro
Member
Username: mainesails
Post Number: 4
Registered: 09-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, January 19, 2006 - 05:26 pm: |
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The two things to think about when repowering from a P-60:
1) it is generally installed with 22" bed spacing. These unusually wide beds might need modification before dropping in a diesel and
2) the P-60 has a very low profile. Most Diesel engines require at least 2" more vertical clearance. If the space is tight then some surgery might be necessary. On my M28, the only Diesel that would fit without surgery to the cabin would be the 14 hp Beta. |
Daryl Peter
New member
Username: pedrod
Post Number: 2
Registered: 11-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 05, 2006 - 08:48 pm: |
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Fellow sailors,
From what I see in the discussion is that there are parts available. The marine side of the engine are scarce and will probably get scarcer with time. The tractor side seems to be not only plentifull, but modest in price. I may sing a diferent tune in May when I crank her up,but I will know she is terminal before I scrap a good engine. I also collect old tractors as a hobby.
PedroD |
Eddie Ross
Senior Member
Username: eddie
Post Number: 163
Registered: 04-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 06, 2006 - 04:09 pm: |
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Hold on to some of the marine specific parts, especially the exaust manifold. Several people have broken the water hose fitting ( where the water temperature sending unit is ). That's another item to strip off if you junk the engine. |
Daryl Peter
New member
Username: pedrod
Post Number: 3
Registered: 11-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, December 07, 2006 - 12:38 am: |
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Eddie,
You mentioned diesel electric. I believe there is a web page dedicated to that subject. I ran across it looking for sail drives. What I recall is they were not cheap and were being applied to upscale sailboats. I think there would be two downsides to the application to modestly priced boats such as cost and longevity of the solid state controller in a corrosive enviornment. |
Eddie Ross
Senior Member
Username: eddie
Post Number: 164
Registered: 04-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, December 07, 2006 - 02:02 pm: |
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Daryl, I (Eddie) was responding to Brett's post. With all due respect to Brett, I was dubious about his ideas about repowering. I have no particular interest in diesel electric power for auxilliary sailboat engines, presently. I would be interested in any technical development that would make them feasible, but as of yet, I have not heard of one. |
Daryl Peter
Member
Username: pedrod
Post Number: 4
Registered: 11-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, December 07, 2006 - 02:52 pm: |
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As I previously stated I think the technology is there. At least there is one electric outboard manufacturer as well as another who makes a high tech inboard that operated either direct or as a hybrid. I think they were at the boat show in Florida. Both systems are running 144volts DC. That would deliver a deadly sting if you touched it. Both make use of around a dozen batteries that give them a range of 4 hours +/- |
Eddie Ross
Senior Member
Username: eddie
Post Number: 165
Registered: 04-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, December 07, 2006 - 03:35 pm: |
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Thanks for the update. I'm sure it's on the way. Coupled with a recharging ability from shore power and solar cells down the road they might all be that way.
Most of those coping with P-60s have old boats and are on a tight budget, so a low cost replacements are their primary concern. |
Brad Hart
Visitor
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 25, 2007 - 10:01 pm: |
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hi,
in regards to Brett Wynkoop, I have been searching on information regarding the 18hp Briggs and Stratton Briggs & Stratton Vanguard Diesel Engine with Electric Start — 18 HP, 1 1/8in. x 3in. Shaft, Model# 432447-0105 for use in a 1969 Schock sailboat. I am considering use of a closed circuit system with a keel cooler mounted on the transom right beneath the waterline.I am replacing a Universal marine 12 hp which barely pushes the boat. Any suggestions or comments from the board would be greatly appreciated. (would it be possible to keep the radiator and just use an electric fan rather thatn the keel cooler?) |
Richard A. Day Jr.
Senior Member
Username: richardday
Post Number: 510
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, July 26, 2007 - 11:09 am: |
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The real problem is the heat transfer in a keel cooler is so much more efficient than a radiator and fan. You may not be able to move the required volume of air without a larger radiator and fan with air ducting etc. With a keel cooler on the transom near the water line can you insure adequate water flow over the keel cooler when the boat is underway??? The simplest keel cooler is a length of copper pipe along side the keel rubbing strip with a U turn at the bow back down the other side of the rubbing strip circulating 50:50 fresh water and antifreeze. Cheap, simple and efficient. |
Richard Shapiro
Advanced Member
Username: mainesails
Post Number: 43
Registered: 09-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, July 26, 2007 - 03:10 pm: |
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Keel coolers are common here in Maine. Many of the older lobsterboats have them. I have seen them both with a u-bend and a simple straight length of pipe attached to a fitting at each end.
If a 12hp engine barely pushes the boat, would 18hp be enough? You want about 4hp per ton of boat - which will give you enough drive to punch through a chop. It's more than you strictly ineed in calm water. All 3 of the larger sailboats I've owned have adhered to this rule.
The issue with various oddball engine systems is that if you're not an engineer or a person with access to a machine shop and with the experience to use it, the extra time and money spent in getting it working and making it right will often exceed the price of a "normal" marine engine. |
Colum Muccio
New member
Username: colum
Post Number: 1
Registered: 08-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 01, 2007 - 01:07 pm: |
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Need to replace the head gasket on my P-60 here in Guatemala. Does anyone know of a mail order source? It should be copper sheeting or copper/asbestos? |
Bob Long
Member
Username: oblong
Post Number: 12
Registered: 07-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 01, 2007 - 04:53 pm: |
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colum
look under palmer there is info on buying new head gasket copper asbestos |
Harry Wrede
Visitor
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 01, 2007 - 07:09 pm: |
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The copper head gasket is available from Ebay store -- GASKETS-TO-GO -- They deliver quickly and at a great price. |
John Wolf
Visitor
| | Posted on Thursday, September 20, 2007 - 06:47 am: |
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Regarding replacing the P-60 with a Diesel; one resource you might check out is the Catboat Association. The Marshall 22, a popular fiberglas catboat which began production in 1965, was originally sold with the P-60 as standard equipment. Once Yanmar began making a name for itself over here, they phased out the Palmer and have since used the Yanmar 2GM, later the 2GM-20F, and now (since the GM series has been phased out) the 2YM-20F. It has rpm characteristics similar to the Palmer-actually, it think it runs at higher rpms (up to 3400 continuous), and is considered by owners of older 22's to be a "drop-in" replacement for the Palmer. It's available with reduction ratios of about 2.2:1, 2.62:1, and 3.22:1. I have a '70 Marshall 18 with a 1981 Yanmar 1-GM engine (2.62:1 gear) which I think is the "Cat's Meow!" Great engines! The Catboat Assn. website is www.catboats.org and the Marshall site is www.marshallcat.com. They're very helpful, too, and don't care if you're an owner or not-nice folks! By the way-forget about using an air-cooled B & S gas engine-they're not available with a proper marine carburetor and thus present a serious fire/explosion hazard, and the air cooling would require extensive air trunking/ductwork and ventilation; plus the noise would be stupendous. Stick with engines (gas or Diesel) designed for the marine environment. If your boat already has a fuel tank, be advised that any tank made of fiberglas, steel, iron, Monel or aluminum will work with Diesel (but will require the addition of a fuel return line). However, a tank made of GALVANIZED steel will NOT work-the fuel oil will attack the galvanizing and ruin both the tank and your engine's fuel system! Hope this helps. |
smolinan
Visitor
| | Posted on Monday, September 15, 2008 - 10:14 pm: |
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I may need to repower soon. I have a P-60 that may have seen its last days. I started it as usual and was motoring out to catch the wind when the engine started to decelerate slowly, but deliberately. I turned back to the slip where the engine died and would not restart. I found that water had made its way into the crankcase (milky oil), probably from too much cranking to try a restart, so I drained and refilled the oil.
Yesterday I went back to the boat armed with new plugs, points, condenser, rotor, cap, points and new plug wires. I did a compression test on all cylinders and found #1 at zero, #2 at 110, #3 at 115, and #4 at zero, even after pouring in some Marvel Mystery oil. During the test #3 and #4 spit out water. I would appreciate any diagnosis as to my problem, any prognosis as to the liklihood of continued life for my very sick P-60. Thank you. |
TomSheridan
Visitor
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 27, 2009 - 06:45 pm: |
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I have an old universal 5411 diesel and am trying to find parts from other than torrensen. Are there any less expensive options for parts? |
Arnaud
Visitor
| | Posted on Friday, August 14, 2009 - 04:51 pm: |
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I worked quite a bit on my Palmer P-60 since I bought my 1974 Challenger 32 five years ago. Now I am having a big problem with the distributor and need to change it. Does any of you guys know where to find a rebuilt distributor? |
Ernie
Senior Member
Username: ernie
Post Number: 1007
Registered: 01-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, August 15, 2009 - 06:54 am: |
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Arnaud,
I forwarded your e-mail to Dick Day. He has one and will be in contact with you
Ernie |
Richard A. Day Jr.
Senior Member
Username: richardday
Post Number: 782
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, August 15, 2009 - 11:17 am: |
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Thanks Ernie, I shipped him the last good one this morning. I am down to one left and it needs to be rebushed. |
Kip Wiley
New member
Username: kwiley
Post Number: 1
Registered: 07-2009
| | Posted on Saturday, August 15, 2009 - 11:30 am: |
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P60 owners- I have had good luck with Van Ness Engineering for Palmer parts and repairs. He recently did a beautiful job refurbishing my distributor. Contact Dave @ (201) 445-8685. |
David Band
Member
Username: attyband
Post Number: 8
Registered: 07-2011
| | Posted on Monday, December 19, 2011 - 01:58 pm: |
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Electric Fuel Pump for Palmer P60? My fuel pump just clicks and dosen't build up any pressure. It's got" Bendix" on it and a number 574A on it, but I understand that's not the part number. Would any universal fuel pump work? Do I have to buy something from Moyer Marine? |
christian hess
Visitor
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 03, 2013 - 04:29 pm: |
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Hello, Im in urgent need of an exhaust manifold...for my p60 on my islander 36.
My current manifold leaks back into the cylinders...
is there any way to extend this manifolds life? or does anyone have a good spare manifold?
I know this is the hard part to find...
last question can a dry exhaust system be retroffited some way?
thanks
christian |
Eddie Ross
Senior Member
Username: eddie
Post Number: 317
Registered: 04-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 04, 2013 - 11:55 am: |
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You will have to obtain one from a scrapped engine unless you can repair it. You might take it to a good weld shop and see what they can do. There are no after market replacement and the company has been out business for almost 40 years.
As far as prevention goes, flushing The cooling system with fresh water is the only way to maintain it. |
Glen Marcotte
New member
Username: glenmarc58
Post Number: 3
Registered: 05-2013
| | Posted on Thursday, September 05, 2013 - 11:21 pm: |
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@ Christian ,First ensure it is the exhaust manifold and not a blown head gasket! Remove the head and check the gasket for any corrosian first!My exhaust manifold was good....except for where it mates to the exhaust elbow. The threads were shot but a couple of helicoils and epoxied studs and I was back in business! |
Daniel Pacheco
New member
Username: danp53
Post Number: 2
Registered: 06-2013
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 01, 2013 - 11:17 am: |
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I've got a complete P60 that I have had sitting around for a few years. I just sold the boat I had it for as a spare. Not sure of the hours but the manifold and thermostat were good on it. It was also a 12v system with alternator. |
