| Author |
Message |
    
Jason Range
New member
Username: jrange
Post Number: 1
Registered: 06-2007
| | Posted on Saturday, June 02, 2007 - 12:09 am: | 
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Just purchased 1973 Islander 30MKII. Has Palmer P60 (judging by the owners manual that came with it). Starts up like a champ! Owner said it needs an impeller. I have replaced impeller, checked flow to block(good), checked flow at return line(assuming thermostat stuck shut) and at exhaust (attempting to eliminate 'exhaust vapor lock'). Water going into block not coming out, seems to me I need to remove head and clean passages?
CANNOT FIND DIPSTICK!!
Any help would be greatly appreciated. |
Eddie Ross
Senior Member
Username: eddie
Post Number: 182
Registered: 04-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, June 02, 2007 - 01:15 am: |
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Dipstick is combo oil breather and dipstick on starboard side outside of exaust manifold. Thermostat is in a small brass housing connected to a pipe thread fitting that goes into the top forward part of exaust manifold. Thermostat is NOT in hose fitting on top of cylinder head where it would be on a tractor engine. |
Richard A. Day Jr.
Senior Member
Username: richardday
Post Number: 503
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, June 02, 2007 - 07:34 am: |
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Is this a salt or fresh water cooled engine? |
Richard Shapiro
Advanced Member
Username: mainesails
Post Number: 32
Registered: 09-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, June 02, 2007 - 07:47 pm: |
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In the stock configuration, even if the cooling system is functioning properly, no water will come out of the exhaust until the thermostat opens. Normally, the impeller circulates water through the block and, when the thermostat heats up, it redirects water out to the wet exhaust. The intake sucks in new water to replace what went into the exhaust.
If you know that the cooling passages aren't dry (which they won't be if the engine was properly winterized), I'd lubricate the new impeller with water pump grease and run the engine. When the engine warms up (an infra-red non-contact thermometer to take the block's temp is better than the boat's temp gauge), see if water starts to come out of the exhaust. If the engine gets over 200 degrees and there's still no flow, then you will have to start trouble-shooting, but that's another series of posts. |
Jason Range
New member
Username: jrange
Post Number: 2
Registered: 06-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, June 03, 2007 - 11:43 pm: |
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Wow, thanks for all the input!
Engine is fresh water.
I have not run temp past about 150 (using temp guage), but I have pulled the recirculation line at the tee off of the exhaust manifold at the thermostat and found it to be dry with engine running. I have verified pump is pumping water as far as input to the block. As for winterizing and dry cooling passages, I unfortunately can't say. I guess I will need to get an infra-red and run up to 200?
Thanks again.
Still open to any ideas and suggestions. |
Richard Shapiro
Advanced Member
Username: mainesails
Post Number: 33
Registered: 09-2005
| | Posted on Monday, June 04, 2007 - 07:41 am: |
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A salt water thermostat should open at 140 degrees. A fresh water thermostat should open between 160 and 180 degrees.
I hope this helps. |
Eddie Ross
Senior Member
Username: eddie
Post Number: 185
Registered: 04-2003
| | Posted on Monday, June 04, 2007 - 10:32 am: |
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The thermostat in it's housing acts as a double action valve. When it is open it allows hot water to go into the exaust. When it is closed it allows bypass water to go into the exaust. That way, there is always water going into the exaust, hot or cold |
Richard Shapiro
Advanced Member
Username: mainesails
Post Number: 34
Registered: 09-2005
| | Posted on Monday, June 04, 2007 - 09:19 pm: |
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You're right that there's a bypass hole in the thermostat, but it's very small. I don't have any visible water coming out when my T-stat is closed. Perhaps your system is a little different than mine. |
Eddie Ross
Senior Member
Username: eddie
Post Number: 186
Registered: 04-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 05, 2007 - 01:31 am: |
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Richard are you talking about the air bleed line from the fitting in the cylinder head? Fitting is a 1/8 inch pipe thread. |
Richard Shapiro
Advanced Member
Username: mainesails
Post Number: 35
Registered: 09-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 05, 2007 - 07:11 am: |
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No, there is a small hole in the thermostat itself. The air bleed line is important, though. It shouldn't be clogged. |
Jason Range
New member
Username: jrange
Post Number: 3
Registered: 06-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, June 07, 2007 - 01:33 am: |
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Water is not getting to thermostat housing. I pulled the line from the head to the exhaust manifold at the head, water to the block, no water coming out of the head. I guess I will try pressure flush (any recommendations on best method?) before pulling the head? |
Eddie Ross
Senior Member
Username: eddie
Post Number: 187
Registered: 04-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, June 07, 2007 - 12:51 pm: |
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Did you remove the fitting (where the thermostat would be on a tractor engine) and see if someone put a thermostat there by mistake? In the event that you pull the head, note that there are brand new aftermarket heads availiable. Am I to understand that you operate your boat in a lake and not the ocean? |
Jason Range
Member
Username: jrange
Post Number: 4
Registered: 06-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 12, 2007 - 09:47 pm: |
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Removed elbow/fitting at the head, no thermostat. Hooked garden hose to line going into block, after leaving hose on for 15 minutes the water jacket in the head filled up. Hooked garden hose to elbow on head, flush with reverse flow, got some flow. After switching water flow back and forth, I got decent flow going backwards(from head toward water pump) and just a trickle in forward/actual flow direction.
? Water coming out of water pump disconnected with water pressure going directly into block-bypass is disconnected?
? Still guessing passages blocked inside block or head. - Can I use a cooling system flush? Automotive or marine specific? |
Ben Sidaway
Member
Username: ben
Post Number: 28
Registered: 05-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 13, 2007 - 12:43 pm: |
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Jason,
Check out previous discussions on scale in the block (which I had) at
http://www.oldmarineengine.com/discus/messages/3430/6234.html
and
http://www.oldmarineengine.com/discus/messages/3430/6937.html
Good luck,
Ben. |
Jason Range
Member
Username: jrange
Post Number: 5
Registered: 06-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 13, 2007 - 11:45 pm: |
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Ran Prestone cooling system flush from waterpump input thru cylinder head. After flow got better and temp rose, I put system back together. I HAVE WATER THROUGH THE STERN! Temp came up to 140, stayed for about 10 minutes and then crept up to 160. After about 13 minutes I shut it down at about 170, not going to push my luck until I change the oil.
I know it depends on the thermostat(my next project), what is safe operating temp for fresh water P60?
Thank you for all of your help and encouragement. I am not all that mechanically inclined and this was quite an accomplishment. |
Eddie Ross
Senior Member
Username: eddie
Post Number: 189
Registered: 04-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, June 14, 2007 - 09:33 am: |
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Do you have a heat exchanger, enclosed cooling system or is raw water running directly from the inlet to your engine? Do you operate your boat in a lake or in the ocean? |
Jason Range
Member
Username: jrange
Post Number: 6
Registered: 06-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, June 14, 2007 - 11:13 am: |
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Raw water directly into water pump. Boat is in fresh water. |
Eddie Ross
Senior Member
Username: eddie
Post Number: 190
Registered: 04-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, June 14, 2007 - 11:40 am: |
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You could go as High as 160 degrees being that you are in a fresh water lake but 140 is good until or unless you find a 160 thermostat. Now, do you know where the thermostat is on a P-60? |
Jason Range
Member
Username: jrange
Post Number: 7
Registered: 06-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, June 14, 2007 - 11:54 am: |
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Call me ignorant, do you mean the operating temp should stay around 160? How hot is too hot? |
Jason Range
Member
Username: jrange
Post Number: 8
Registered: 06-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, June 14, 2007 - 11:55 am: |
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Yes, it has the Dole style thermostat. I have not tested yet, that is next. |
Richard Shapiro
Advanced Member
Username: mainesails
Post Number: 37
Registered: 09-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, June 14, 2007 - 12:10 pm: |
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As long as the coolant isn't boiling, you're OK. I'd keep it below about 190 to give me plenty of safety margin. |
Eddie Ross
Senior Member
Username: eddie
Post Number: 191
Registered: 04-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, June 14, 2007 - 12:25 pm: |
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Whoa, Richard!!!!! Raw water systems should operate at 140 degrees in salt water and 160 degrees in fresh water rivers and lakes. |
Richard Shapiro
Advanced Member
Username: mainesails
Post Number: 38
Registered: 09-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, June 14, 2007 - 01:35 pm: |
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Sorry, Eddie. I should have been more specific. Raw water systems should absolutely run no hotter than 140, otherwise you risk blocking the engine's cooling passages through mineral build-up.
Fresh water cooled systems are not subject to that limitation. I do believe, and have been told by several mechanics, that you don't harm your fresh water cooled engine unless you boil the coolant.
I don't have a problem with a 160 degree thermostat, but unless the people who taught me were wrong, it's a safety blanket, not a requirement.
I will put in a call to a mechanic I trust and get his opinion. |
Eddie Ross
Senior Member
Username: eddie
Post Number: 192
Registered: 04-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, June 14, 2007 - 02:52 pm: |
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The term "fresh water cooled" is understood differenntly by people so I always double check to see if they clearly understand the term. I use the term "enclosed system" and emphasize "heat exchanger" on the discussion boards. |
Jason Range
Member
Username: jrange
Post Number: 9
Registered: 06-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, June 14, 2007 - 03:11 pm: |
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I may be unclear. What and where is heat exchanger? How can I tell which system I have? |
Richard Shapiro
Advanced Member
Username: mainesails
Post Number: 39
Registered: 09-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, June 14, 2007 - 04:43 pm: |
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I just spoke to my mechanic, who told me that he has no problem running any fresh water cooled engine at 180, whether it has a heat exchanger or is raw water cooled.
Here's how to tell if you have a heat exchanger:
If your water intake goes from the pump into the engine and from there to the exhaust, then you have a raw-water cooled engine. This type has only one water pump.
All the P60 engines I've seen are raw water cooled.
You have a heat exchanger on your boat if you have a raw water circuit with its own pump that runs through a housing and then to the exhaust. This water never enters the engine block.
The housing is the heat exchanger. It is often cylindrical, generally a little smaller than a blender, and mounted on top of or besides the engine. It may be mounted either horizontally or vertically.
There would also be a fresh water circuit with its own water pump that circulates through the engine. These systems usually have an expansion tank and use antifreeze. |
Eddie Ross
Senior Member
Username: eddie
Post Number: 193
Registered: 04-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, June 14, 2007 - 05:09 pm: |
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That's what I was taking about. "Fresh water cooled" means that you are not running the outside water directly through the engine for cooling. In a fresh water system the water in the engine is circulated, usually with anti- freeze in it, round and round in an enclosed system like in an automobile except that instead of a radiator the coolant goes to a heat exchanger to dissapate the heat. In the heat exchanger the coolant goes through tubes that go through circulated raw water from outside the boat.
In a raw water system the cooling water comes from outside the boat and goes directly into the engine.
I do not like the term "fresh water system" because people who run their boat in a lake or river might think that their raw water system is a fresh water system because lakes and rivers are fresh water. It can be confusing.
Heat exchange systems have a resevoir for coolant and a heat exchanger, which is a tank with circulating raw water and tubes inside through which coolant from the engine is circulating to cool it down as it dissapates the heat into the raw water then returns to the engine.
Both systems expel raw water into the exaust manifold. In a raw water system the raw water goes into the engine block and out the head (or heads) to the exaust manifold. In a fresh water system the raw water goes into the heat exchanger and heated water goes out from the excanger to the exaust manifold. |
Jason Range
Member
Username: jrange
Post Number: 10
Registered: 06-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, June 14, 2007 - 10:21 pm: |
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Flushed one more time. Ran for 45 minutes, went up to 180, came back to 160 and stayed. I think I am out of the woods, or out on the water.
Thank you for all of your help. Unbelievable how much I have learned.
Talk to you when it is time to winterize (or sooner if my two cents will help)! |
