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Scott
Visitor
| | Posted on Thursday, April 19, 2007 - 08:49 am: | 
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After looking in the archives I found some information on this, but have a few more questions. When we went out for our second voyage of the year, the motor quit and I went below to take a look and it was pumping fuel out of the flame arestor. I assume something got caught in the needle that was connected to the float, so it over filled the carb. Once I got it off and cleaned up and re-installed the motor fired right up. I have 3 inline filters but there all before the fuel pump, I am thinking I should run one between the pump and the carb? Do you think I should re-build the carb? I stopped into NAPA and they can order it but there need a 5 digit zenith carb number any ideas what that is? Our boat is 2 hrs away so I can just run over to look at that. From taking it apart it takes a kit like this one.. http://www.moyermarine.com/cgi-bin/shopper.cgi?preadd=action&key=FCAR_02_54
Also there is a metal pipe that comes out of the flame arestor and one out of the block but no hose connecting the 2 should there be? I think I have a small exhaust leak would that missing house cause that?
Thanks for the help. Scott |
Richard Shapiro
Member
Username: mainesails
Post Number: 27
Registered: 09-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, April 19, 2007 - 10:08 am: |
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I have a Racor gas filter near the tank and a Moyer Marine style inline filter between the pump and carb. I think it's a good idea. Why do you have 3 filters?
There should be a hose between the block and the arrester. This feeds any pressure/gas generated in the crankcase back into the intake so that it doesn't pollute your boat. This might or might not be the cause of your perceived exhaust leak, but it should still be fixed. The tube doesn't have to be fancy. Mine is clear marine water hose (like to the sink).
You should think about an oil pressure cut off for the pump. Moyer sells the switch. You pull out the oil pressure sender, insert a plumbing Tee fitting, and put both sensers back.
This way, the pump only functions when the engine is running. If you do this you will have to re-wire or hand pump to prime before cold starting (I have an outboard bulb right next to the cut-off valve from the tank - works like a charm), but it will prevent filling your bilge with gas if your float or needle valve sticks again. This is a great idea, both for safety and for not finding yourself out of gas at a bad time.
I don't know if you need to rebuild the carb, but it's not crazy. People have also reported success from changing to a new Zenith carb from Moyer BUT you have to go round the houses to fit the flame arrester to the new carb and connect the crankcase hose. |
Scott Helgesen
New member
Username: paperboy
Post Number: 2
Registered: 06-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, April 19, 2007 - 10:31 am: |
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Not sure for the 3 filters I know the previous owner had a bad fuel tank with lots of junk in it so we replaced that with stainless steel tank. So I will just run with the Racor filter, and a inline between the pump and carb.
I think the carb is a Zenith 68 series so i think its the newer carb already. I know the flame arestor is square at the screen end but its a round hose clamp connection at the carb.
I will put a small hose in for the block to arestor connection, and that will either fix or eliminate that as the source of the exhaust leak.
Good tip on the oil pressure cut off, other than if the pump did not run it would have made it hard to disgonse the stuck float we had. But i wondered the same thing that the pump ran even with out the motor running. Thanks for your help.
Scott |
Richard A. Day Jr.
Senior Member
Username: richardday
Post Number: 495
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, April 21, 2007 - 10:03 am: |
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The PCV system should be working to avoid fumes building up in the hull. The PCV system sucks the crankcase fumes out of the crankcase and they are exhausted out the exhaust pipe. Make sure the engine oil dipstick handle which contains an air filter is cleaned a couple of times a year. The air flow into the Zenith 61 series carburetor over the fitting on the backfire trap reduces the air pressure in the hose connected to the valve cover of the engine. This reduces the air pressure in the crankcase and in turn air flows into the crankcase via the filter in the dip stick handle hence the need to clean it occasionally with gasoline and compressed air. Prudence suggests you don't do the cleaning on the boat or in the immeadiate dock area. The Zenith 61 series part no. is 12547 possibly followed by a letter indicating some engineering change. The NAPA part number is carb kit 2-1565 Th |
Scott Helgesen
New member
Username: paperboy
Post Number: 3
Registered: 06-2006
| | Posted on Monday, April 23, 2007 - 09:16 am: |
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Well after another weekend and a carb re-build. Our carb is a Zenith 68 series carb, same thing this weekend we are motoring along and the motor dies out do down below fuel coming from carb, take carb apart clean with carb cleaner put back together and on our way. I am not sure if a am getting junk in the carb abd stuck in the needle or maybe the float is getting hung up, should i grease the float pin with something? I moved the filter to right before the carb. Also in the rebuild kit there was a small sorta u-shaped clip that went between the float and the needle, my orginal carb did not have that so i left it out since the kits seemed like it might be for more than 1 style carb.
And the Pcv system I can't really get a hose on it since the almost touch and a hose would just kink.
Any suggestion would be great.
Scott |
Eddie Ross
Senior Member
Username: eddie
Post Number: 174
Registered: 04-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 24, 2007 - 04:39 am: |
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You might have a bad ignition key switch. Ignition switches go bad with time. If it is original or very old I would change it out for good measure. When installing new marine grade switch be sure that the drain hole in the body of the switch is pointed down. Might also be a weak coil. Reason that I mention these ignition items is that if you have a momentary lapse in ignition the engine will stop but the elecrtric fuel pump might still be pumping. |
Richard A. Day Jr.
Senior Member
Username: richardday
Post Number: 496
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 24, 2007 - 07:32 am: |
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The return el in the valve cover of the P-60 belongs on the end next to the flywheel. By chance has someone installed it with the the return bend at the reverse gear end of the engine? I am puzzeled why the carb is a 68 versus a 61 which is the one I am familiar with. |
Scott Helgesen
Member
Username: paperboy
Post Number: 4
Registered: 06-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 24, 2007 - 08:30 am: |
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Eddie I am not sure I follow you on the electrical problem, we put in a new key so in know that is good. If there was a electrical problem why would the carb allow the gas to be pumped and flow out of the flame arestor? the fuel coming from the carb is what is leading me to the float getting stuck, but maybe it is electrical can you explain more?
Rich all I know is the Tag on the Carb is Zenith 13355 which I think is a 68 series. The way the carb is installed is the flame arestor is towards the reverse gear, also the block vent for the PCV system is a the reverse gear end, making a hose connection impossible. I can't really flip the carb since that would make the throttle connection backwards and aginst the block.
Scott |
Eddie Ross
Senior Member
Username: eddie
Post Number: 175
Registered: 04-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 24, 2007 - 01:20 pm: |
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Just an idea, Scott. I thought maybe the carburator is not capable of holding back the entire pressure of the fuel pump once the engine stops. I know from my experience with my old boat and a P-60 that the fuel pump, being electric, only pumps or doesn't pump according to whether or not the ignition is connected. I theorized that possibly the engine dying had nothing to do with the carburator and thought to trouble shoot for an ignition problem whether or not the carbuerator is defective. The switch and coil are the two ignition problems that likely would follow the symtoms you describe.
Many people went to the 68 series carbuerator as an improved replacement for the 61 series. |
Scott Helgesen
Member
Username: paperboy
Post Number: 5
Registered: 06-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 24, 2007 - 02:24 pm: |
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Ok I am listening... Eddie here is what I have/ am thinking. You mentioned the switch and the coil. I have put in a brand new switch so I assume its not that. The coil i am not sure of the age. Here is what happens we will be motoring back down the channel to the marina motor will slowly die out like its run out of gas its not a instant shut off, I go down below and pull the stairs off and there is fuel coming out of the flame arestor. I remove the carb disassemble it clean with carb cleaner and re-install and the moment you hit start the motor fires right up. So what do you think? Electrical or Carb? |
Eddie Ross
Senior Member
Username: eddie
Post Number: 176
Registered: 04-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 24, 2007 - 02:55 pm: |
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I am puzzled by it winding down and not misfiring or quiting instantly. How long has it been since you replaced the points, condenser, cap and rotor? |
Scott Helgesen
Member
Username: paperboy
Post Number: 6
Registered: 06-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 24, 2007 - 03:22 pm: |
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I have no idea, the boat is new to us. They all look good, but that does not really mean anything. But yes it just dies out and there is no missing or back firing.
Scott |
Eddie Ross
Senior Member
Username: eddie
Post Number: 177
Registered: 04-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 24, 2007 - 05:16 pm: |
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If the distributor cap has a hairline crack or was ignored too long and has carbon trails you might have problems from it. One of the most overlooked items people miss is the distributor cap. Being that you do not know the history I'd assume that the cap and rotor need changing. When changing the cap always take care not to mix up the spark plug wires. Transfer the wires carefully one at a time. |
Karl Burton
Member
Username: karl_burton
Post Number: 6
Registered: 11-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, May 12, 2007 - 12:38 am: |
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If you have ongoing fuel leakage problems through the flame arrestor, you might want to check the fuel pressure. The old Zeniths, if I recall correctly, want 1.5-2.5 pounds of pressure. Most new electric fuel pumps will put out 4 at a minimum. You can get fuel pressure regulators, if that's the problem.
The other question is about the floats in the carb - make sure that they have the right drop, and that they have not leaked. You might try setting the the floats a little lower than the diagram calls for, to get a little more pressure on the needle valve.
With respect to the crankcase ventilation - the tube fitting on the flame arrestor faces forward. The tube fitting on the engine should face backwards, towards it. The fitting on the engine is actually on the sheet-metal plate that covers the valve lifters. If someone put that plate on backwards (which would fit perfectly otherwise), then the tube fitting would face forward and yes, be impossible to connect to the carb.
If that's the case, you just need to remove the carb and remove the valve cover plate - two bolts. Turn the plate around and reattach it. (Note: depending on how your engine is installed, and what access you have to the starboard side of it, this may be easier said than done). |
Karl Burton
Member
Username: karl_burton
Post Number: 7
Registered: 11-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, May 12, 2007 - 01:46 am: |
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And another one, remembered from way back here- seems to me that some float valve seats are a little wonky. If I remember right, the thing to do is get a piece of 1/8" dowel - cut a couple inches off it and chuck it in a drill and run it against a piece of sandpaper to make a 45 degree point on it. Now stick it into the float valve seat and run the drill - the wood will polish the seat.
I've never tried this - but that's what I remember someone else posting a long time ago.
Another thing to try that's easier than rebuilding the carb every time - when the flooding happens, shut off the gas line to the carb and let the engine run the carb dry. Now remove the fuel inlet line at the carburetor, and take a can of "canned air" and blast the hell out of it, going in where the fuel did. With a little luck, the air will blow away whatever thingie was keeping the float needle from seating properly.
Connect everything back up, and see what you've got. |
Ben Sidaway
Member
Username: ben
Post Number: 26
Registered: 05-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, May 13, 2007 - 10:46 pm: |
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I had similar problems with my carb, fuel coming out of the spark arrestor. I took the carb off numerous times and cleaned it...became quite the expert at it. The problem in the end was a combination of problems. First, junk getting into the carb from a dirty fuel tank I think. I found lots of sludge in the primary filter, also there was lots of sludge in the fuel pump (so make sure you clean out the fuel pump). I now have disposable paper filters (from an auto store) before and after the fuel pump. I eventually cleaned out my fuel tank by taking it out of the boat and putting nuts in the tank with acetone and shaking it. Even after I completely cleaned the carb numerous times I could still get the float valve stuck in the up position. With the carb off and empty of petrol, turn it upside down so the valve will be closed. Now try and blow air through the fuel inlet with your mouth. You shouldn't be able hear any air going through if your valve is working correctly. No put the carb the right way up and blow again, now a thin stream air should go in. Sometimes in this position, I still couldn't get air in even after cleaning the carb thoroughly. So make sure your valve seat is nice and polished and maybe get a new float valve from Moyer marine. Don't get the NAPA kit as most of what you get in the kit is useless. I got a new valve and I added that little clip that attaches the needle to the float to help pull the needle down. The final problem, probably created by me by too much tinkering and trying to adjust the height of the float, was that I found a leak in one of the floats around the solder. When I had the float out I saw fuel weeping ftom the soldering. Simple fix - buy a new float from Moyer. Another tip.... to check your filtering, take the fuel line off from the carb and stick it in a glass bottle and then turn on the ignition and pump some fuel out. Let the fuel settle and see if you have any junk in the bottom of the bottle. Also, I replaced all my fuel lines to try and stop dirt getting into the carb. Hope any of this helps, Ben, |
Richard A. Day Jr.
Senior Member
Username: richardday
Post Number: 501
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Monday, May 14, 2007 - 09:42 pm: |
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I have found one of the worst offenders is trash getting into the top of the float valve keeping fuel from flowing into the bowl. People tend to clean the bowl and all that good stuff and yet they don't remove the fuel line connection to the carb and blow out the crud on top of the valve seat with a air blast that has a small pipe that allow the air to force the crud back out the way it went in. Too often just blowing compressed air into the openng simply packs the crud in tighter. |
Ben Sidaway
Member
Username: ben
Post Number: 27
Registered: 05-2005
| | Posted on Monday, May 14, 2007 - 11:12 pm: |
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Every time I clean the carb I take out all ports and back out the float valve seat and blast everything with an aerosol carb cleaner from all directions. Also Scott, take a careful look at the end of the float needle, there is a small rubber cone that I found can be pitted and so the float just cannot completely stem the flow of fuel in the raised position. |
David Band
Member
Username: attyband
Post Number: 7
Registered: 07-2011
| | Posted on Monday, November 28, 2011 - 08:57 am: |
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Anybody know what to do with a 20 year old permanently mounted gas tank in a sailboat that's picked up debris we hate to leave in, pour clean gas over and take the risk of clogging the carburator all over again. Do I have to literally cut the tank out and shake it with bolts in it to break the debris loose and remount and fiberglass it back in??? |
Spence Kerrigan
Member
Username: spence
Post Number: 10
Registered: 05-2007
| | Posted on Monday, November 28, 2011 - 09:13 am: |
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A good filter in the fuel line should help until you find a way to clean the tank. |
