Ran Palmer have a few Questions

Author Message   Scott Visitor Posted on Monday, April 02, 2007 - 02:41 pm:        Here is the orginal thread from a few months ago. http://www.oldmarineengine.com/discus/messages/3430/100614.html We started and ran the motor after replacing the starter relay. We ran the motor for about 20min with sticking the hose in a bucket of water. I played with the ball valve on the motor and all the way open and all the way closed water still came out of the exhaust why is this i thought by closing the ball valve made it like a closed system and would allow the motor to warm up. The temp gague seems to be broke but we will get to that in a bit. After 20min of running i could put my hand one the head or block and it was warm but would never burn me, the motor was running higher than idle but no load. I did not put a thermostat in i just tried the motor as is with the ball valve. Next the temp guage i moved the existing guage from down in the cabin to up in the cockpit, not sure it worked in the cabin since we had not ran the motor yet just asumed that it did. but its all the way over to the right beyond 240. and the motor was not that hot. How do i test the guage and what is correct wiring so i can check that and if it needs to be replaced can i just get a temp guage from the Autoparts store? Next is the a idle screw on the motor cause if you pull the throttle all the way back the motor will stall, or how do i give it a idle. my idea once in the water was just to put a stop on the throttle down by the carb. Next the oil change? i see someone added a hose to the drain plug so i can handle that. but where is the filter i looked around and did not see a external and maybe i just missed it, or maybe its internal. What weight oil should i use, and how many quarts. Thanks for all your help and all this was done with the boat out of the water. Scott   Richard A. Day Jr. Senior Member Username: richardday Post Number: 486 Registered: 11-2003 Posted on Monday, April 02, 2007 - 05:55 pm:        Do I really want to get involved in this never ending discussion???. I assume the engine is P-60. The oil filter is visible as a round disk about 3 inches in diameter on the port side just behind the flywheel. It is held in place by the hex head bolt. Just unscrew the bolt and lift off the cap and the filter is staring you in the face. Water better be comming out the exhaust pipe out you can burn your boat up. The typical oil requirment depends on the angle of the engine in the boat go for 3 qts. is my suggestion.   Scott Visitor Posted on Tuesday, April 03, 2007 - 08:25 am:        I thought this I what the board was for was to ask questions. And from what I can tell I asked mostly all new questions where did i steer wrong to upset you Mr Day. Scott   Ernie Senior Member Username: ernie Post Number: 628 Registered: 01-2002 Posted on Tuesday, April 03, 2007 - 11:12 am:        I think the point is that there have been lots and lots of P60 posts. Many of them are repaets of the same quetions over and over. Scott if you search for P60 using the search function at the top I think you will find answers to all of your questions. You will also find more P60 information posted than anywhere else on the net. I just did a search for Palmer P 60 in the subject line and found 241 posts. Hope this helps Ernie   Ernie Senior Member Username: ernie Post Number: 629 Registered: 01-2002 Posted on Tuesday, April 03, 2007 - 11:34 am:        Additionally I scanned the 241 posts and all are not P 60, however there are dozens of P 60 posts throughout the list.   Richard A. Day Jr. Senior Member Username: richardday Post Number: 487 Registered: 11-2003 Posted on Tuesday, April 03, 2007 - 07:56 pm:        Thanks Ernie my point exactly. I have spent hours repeating the same material and it is all there. Sorry I got a little ruffled. I almost said nothing but figured at least I would try one more time.   Ernie Senior Member Username: ernie Post Number: 630 Registered: 01-2002 Posted on Tuesday, April 03, 2007 - 09:29 pm:        I hope this doesn't stop anyone from posting questions. Just remember that there is a search function available for everyine to use. Andrew has put many hours into the design and implementation of this board. Lets use it! When you aren't sure use the search function. I use it often. Sometimes that is the only way to find something. I wonder how many pages of info are here? Can't find it or your not comfortable with the search function then by all means post a question. Also there is a link to most of our e-mail addresses by clicking on a posters name. By the way when I use the search function I almost always find something else interesting to read. Better than TV on a cold winter evening Hope this helps Ernie   Scott Visitor Posted on Wednesday, April 04, 2007 - 02:23 pm:        I have used the search function alot and found good info but also conflicting infomation, I have spoken to Rich Shapario via e-mail and he sent me this say these are the electrial parts he uses on his Palmer and stated the may or may not work on our motor. CondenserNAPA (Echlin)AL116 Rotor NAPA (Echlin)AL104 Distributor Cap NAPA (Echlin)AL110 Contacts NAPA (Echlin)CS725A SparkplugS Champion D21 Oil FilteR NAPA Gold 1153 30 weight oil for motor and trans (detergent level?) using the search function on the site i have seen people saying use plugs 15y and other caps and rotors with part numbers that are close but not the same. Any tips. Also does anyone know the globe part number for a sherwood e20 pump impeller. This is a great site and i appreciate everyones help.   Skip Visitor Posted on Thursday, April 05, 2007 - 12:36 am:        Hi Scott, Well, I have to agree with you that there seem to be a lot of variations but figure that is just because of the great engine that we are using. It is flexible, durable, and keeps on running... and running... and running. Sometimes we have to get a little creative in this area due to parts availability. In general, I have found that my local NAPA store can order everything I have needed but I have to admit sometimes I am just not patient enough and get a little adventurous with parts that seem like they should work. So far I have not run into problems but this is only the beginning of my third year with the P-60. My NAPA guy has a cross reference book which lists a whole bunch of parts under the International Harvester Cub Lo-Boy C60 which I understand is basically the origin of the P-60. So far it has worked for me using that cross reference. I have seen posts here about some specific parts that cannot be used because they were changed by Palmer to accomodate marine use. I don't remember exactly what they are right now but you should be able to find those posts pretty readily too. I operate in a salt water environment and have raw water cooling which I know I should change but figure it has survived for 30+ years this way. I know that is bad reasoning but just have not taken the action to change it. I guess a part of me is a little concerned that changing to fresh water cooling at this point might cause unintended negative consequences. I was on the verge of putting in a simple hose connection to allow me to suck a bucket of fresh water through at the end of each run to clean out the salt water but decided against it for now because I am concerned that I might cause a leak or something that would prevent the cooling water from sucking up through the engine and then really damage my engine. I have a Prestolite distributor. I understand that some P-60 were deployed with other distributors so you may want to verify yours. I just did my service for the season and used these parts. The engine is running great again! Did not replace these parts this time around but understand that these will work (have not personally tried them though): Condenser Standard AL111 Points Standard AL4556XP Replaced these parts: Distributor Cap - (Unknown specification but looked exactly the same as the one I replaced with) Rotor - (Unknown specification and looked slightly different than the one I replaced with) Spark Plugs - Champion D15Y Replaced with these parts: Distributor Cap - NAPA AL134 Rotor - NAPA AL 133 Spark Plugs - Autolite 1116 I use 30 weight oil for engine with a bottle of Marvel Mystery Oil at the beginning of each season. I usually have to add about a quart of oil about half way through the season which runs from mid-March to early December for me. I generally only use the engine for departing and returning to the slip (my harbormaster freaks out when I sail in or out so I try not to do that unless it is a genuine emergency where I cannot get a tow and the engine is just not working... rare but it has happened once in my two years with this boat). I have a 20 gallon gas tank and generally fill two or three times per year. I add a bottle of fuel treatment about once a quarter to boost octane and deal with water/condensation. Seems to be working for me. I try to run the engine at higher RPM for at least twenty minutes once a week. Seems like I get better consistency and performance when I do this. I am still trying to figure out where the level check / fill is for the transmission. Someone told me that the transmission uses the same oil as the engine but I have not verified that. Love to hear if you know how to determine that question. Best wishes, Skip   Richard A. Day Jr. Senior Member Username: richardday Post Number: 488 Registered: 11-2003 Posted on Thursday, April 05, 2007 - 08:59 am:        Very few M-60 AKA P-60 engines had a dip stick for the reverse gear. The oil for the reverse gear is non detergent SAE 30. Depth is about 1 inch below the drive shaft visible when you when you remove the cover of the reverse gear. Amount of oil it takes is determined by the angle of the engine in the boat. There is no connection between the engine crankcase oil and the reverse gear housing.   Skip Visitor Posted on Thursday, April 05, 2007 - 11:35 pm:        Thank you for the info Richard. Noticed that you specified reverse gear. Does that mean the foward is typically direct drive?   Richard A. Day Jr. Senior Member Username: richardday Post Number: 489 Registered: 11-2003 Posted on Friday, April 06, 2007 - 06:20 pm:        Skip at 83 I have a hard time learning the current terms for marine engine related matters. I grew up with clutches and reverse gears. A clutch simply allowed the engine to be disconnected from the prop shaft. A reverse gear meant the clutch not only went from nuetral to forward it could cause the prop shaft to rotate in the opposite direction causing the boat to go astern rather than ahead. We had reduction gears aft of the reverse gear if we wanted a larger prop and more push or pull in the water. Reduction gears were also sometimes required to match the torgue curve of the engine to the maximum size prop for best fuel etc. performance. They brought out V drives to permit engine locations in hulls that took advantage of the hull design. So when I speak of a reverse gear I guess you think of them as transmissions. In the case of the P-60 the transmission locks in the forward position to go ahead but must be held in the reverse position to go astern. Nuetral is in the middle. Hope this clears up any misunderstanding.   Skip Visitor Posted on Friday, April 06, 2007 - 07:20 pm:        Thank you Richard! I have always appreciated your postings as I lurked in the background without participating. Now I am even more impressed knowing that you are 83! Thank you very much for sharing the wealth of knowledge you have garnered throughout your lifetime and for teaching me a little more about my boat and the lexicon of marine engines and affiliated equipment. The way my engine / transmission (reverse gear) is mounted, it is very difficult for me to get to the area where I think I will find the oil fill for the transmission. I have attached a photo that I took by reaching back in the space with my camera. Would the fill hole be the place where there is a relatively big square head bolt/screw illustrated in the image?   Eddie Ross Senior Member Username: eddie Post Number: 167 Registered: 04-2003 Posted on Saturday, April 07, 2007 - 02:00 am:        That's it. Idealy, you could get some of the old oil out with a suction gun and bring the level up to about an inch below the shaft with new oil.   Ben Sidaway Member Username: ben Post Number: 25 Registered: 05-2005 Posted on Sunday, April 08, 2007 - 05:43 pm:        Skip, As Richard implies, it would be much better to remove the cover of the reverse gear case. It is a simple job if you can get to it, one bolt in each corner. I used to have to lie over my engine to get to it but then I cut a hole in the side of the engine box to have easier access. I also needed the access to get to the raw water impeller.   Scott Visitor Posted on Wednesday, April 18, 2007 - 12:01 pm:        When you say 1" below the shaft how do you tell that and are you talking 1" below the drive coming from the motor, or the shaft going to the prop shaft. there are 2 inspection comvers on our transmission do i open those up?   Eddie Ross Senior Member Username: eddie Post Number: 173 Registered: 04-2003 Posted on Thursday, April 19, 2007 - 04:20 am:        That's the aft end of staft. Note: Andrew sells P-60 and IH Cub tractor manuals on store page on this site.   Richard A. Day Jr. Senior Member Username: richardday Post Number: 494 Registered: 11-2003 Posted on Saturday, April 21, 2007 - 09:24 am:        M-60 AKA P-60 Reverse gear drive shaft oil leak repairs. The OXKB reverse gear is very reliable. The oil should be SAE 30 non detergent. The level should be about 1” below the aft end of the shaft in the reverse gear. You have to take the cover off to check it as very few of these model engines seem to have been equipped with a dip stick for the reverse gear, AKA transmission. Oil should be changed (Pumped Out) according to the maker about every 6 months. It is doubtful many owners actually do it. The reverse gear oil pan does not share oil with the engine oil pan so don’t think that because the engine oil level is ok the reverse gear is also ok. The reverse gear does not lock in place. You have to hold it in reverse. The forward gear snaps into place for forward and should not take much pressure to snap in. Be sensitive to it developing possible slippage in the forward operation. When you put it in forward you can sense if the prop shaft is slipping when you speed up the engine. It is simple to correct and just follow the instructions in the manual. Just take it slow don’t make gross changes in the settings as that will not work and it can mess up your reverse gear. If the oil seal at the aft end of the reverse gear leaks it is simple to replace in the boat if you can get at the prop shaft coupling area otherwise you may have to pull the engine. Pump out the oil in the reverse gear. After reassembly you are going to replace the oil with new oil in any case. To replace the rear seal without removing the engine from the boat is a technically simple job and almost impossible to make a serious mistake. Mark the prop shaft coupling with a marking pen so you will put the two flanges back with the same orientation they have been in probably for years. Remove the bolts that hold the coupling together. Then slide the prop shaft aft to give enough room to remove the forward half of the coupling from the reverse gear. About 3” should be enough clearance between the two halves of the coupling. Next step is to remove the seal housing and flange at the aft end of the reverse gear shaft. First remove the hex nut that holds the flange to the reverse gear shaft. Note there is a locking steel ring that keeps the nut from loosening. Bend back the tab so you can get a hex socket over the nut. Don’t lose the locking ring!!! It may help to get an 18 inch long piece of 1-1/2” steel angle iron. Cut away any portion that will interfere with the socket fitting over the hex nut. Drill two holes so you can bolt the angle iron to two holes in the flange. This will give you a good purchase when trying to unscrew the hex nut and later when tightening the hex nut once the seal and bearing have been replaced. Avoid using a pipe wrench to grasp the flange as some “Shade Tree” mechanics may do as you don’t want to mar the flange mating surface and or the seal area of the flange. Once the hex nut and four cap screws holding the seal retainer to the reverse gear housing have been removed one should be able to slide the flange off the reverse gear shaft. With the 4 cap screws removed the seal retaining ring should come off with the flange. Don’t drop it in the bilge you want to keep it relatively clean. Remove and DON’T lose the Woodruff key in the reverse gear shaft. Note the condition of the gasket and the seal. The seal is National 470059 or equivalent. Examine the hub of the flange where the seal has contact to make sure that rust has not eroded the surface and in turn that caused the seal to fail. Clean and oil the hub carefully prior to inserting it into the replacement seal. With the seal retainer and flange removed, remove the shaft ball bearing retainer. Make sure the Woodruff key has been removed before trying to remove the bearing retainer. The ball bearing is SKF 6206/C3 or equivalent. Make sure the ball bearing is in good condition as its failure may have caused the seal failure. These items can easily be replaced by any bearing and seal dealer. Do not confuse this ball bearing with the “Taunton” bearing. That ball bearing is deep in the guts of the reverse gear and almost impossible to locate replacements. If it were to fail it is unlikely the shaft bearing/seal would be caused to fail. If the “Taunton” bearing fails just go to local marinas looking for a junk Paragon OXKB reverse gear. They were a very widely used reverse gear on Palmer and other engines such as the Atomic 4. Check the condition of the gasket between the aft face of the reverse gear and the bearing retainer. If in good condition you can retain it rather than cutting a new gasket. Once a new ball bearing if needed has been installed in the bearing retainer slide it into place. Replace the old seal with a new seal. Oil the hub and slide the flange hub into the seal. Replace the Woodruff Key in the shaft and slide the hub unto the shaft. Then replace the four cap screws in the bearing and seal retainers and set up tight. Replace the locking ring and tighten the hex nut on the end of the shaft. Bend the tab of the locking ring in to hold the hex nut from turning. Pull the prop shaft forward until it mates with the flange on the reverse gear. Note some flanges have a circular piece that precisely lines up the centers of the flanges others have a male/female center which is part of the flange. Reorient the two halves of the flanges so the markings line up and replace the bolts in the flanges. Use an Anti-Seize compound on the bolt threads to prevent rust and insure ease of future removal. Hopefully this information will assist boat owners in making their own repairs.   Mark Livingston Visitor Posted on Sunday, June 28, 2009 - 02:10 am:        Just replaced the head gasket with another steel one from the tractor store. The last steel one lasted 6 years! As I had water in the oil, I suctioned out about 9 quarts of milkshake/oil. Then I forgot how much oil to fill the crankcase with. Good thing you guys are here, Richard says 3 quarts, so 3 it is! Richard Day, thanks for all your help these last 8 years of Palmering. I picked up another Palmer over the winter, for spares. Love that motor and you guys are the best resource a sailor could have.

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