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Scott
Visitor
| | Posted on Friday, December 08, 2006 - 02:27 pm: | 
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Hi I have a question we just bought a 1970 34' Columbia sailboat it has a palmer m-60 in it and the previous owner removed the thermostat and put in a ball valve the waterline instead with a sharpie mark on it for where it should be set. I would like to return this the the orginal correct way with a thermostat and a temp sensor. we sail in the great lakes, so where do we get the correct thermostat and the correct water routing. thanks |
Richard Shapiro
Member
Username: mainesails
Post Number: 17
Registered: 09-2005
| | Posted on Friday, December 08, 2006 - 05:48 pm: |
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The P-60 takes the same "Dole Type" thermostat and housing as an "early" A-4. Moyer Marine has the thermostat and the housing.
The thermostat that they stock runs at 140 degrees, which is the correct setting for a raw water cooled engine in salt water. You should ask them if they have a higher one for use in fresh water, which should make the engine run a bit better, however it is not a requirement. Mine runs just fine at the lower setting.
However, I feel the need to point out that the owner might not have removed the thermostat if he didn't have a problem. The P-60 sometimes develops a temperature instability, where it wants to overheat if it warms up at all. Until this is fixed, the usual short-term remedy is to put a ball-valve in the return loop and shut it off. This forces the cooling water through the engine even though the engine isn't up to temperature. The engine runs at about 100 degrees, but behaves just fine.
P-60 engines are prone to developing a temperature instability for four (fixable) reasons that I know of - there may be more.
1) the bypass or the vent is clogged or not present - the vent is the small line running from the head to the manifold (or to the thermostat housing). This extra line vents air in the cooling system and eases the flow; or
2) the nipple that vents the hot water into the exhaust pipe is partially clogged; or
3) there is scale in the water passages (see the Moyer site for a remedy); or
4) there is a hole in the head gasket and the water passage is getting pressurized. Temperature instability might be the only symptom of a small head gasket leak. If you have this problem, you could probably get a head gasket for an International Harvester C-60 Cub (same block) BUT it is a steel gasket - DON'T RUN IT IN SALT WATER. You could have a copper gasket made or get a lined copper sandwich gasket from a guy in Thailand (http://gasketstogo.com/). I bought one from him but haven't installed it yet.
As to the routing, you need a Palmer manual. I have one and can scan the page, but not won't be able to put my hands on it for a few days. Write back to the list if you want one. A complete manual is available from someone online, but I forget the name. You should be able to find it on Google.
Here's how it works on my engine:
The water exits the engine to the thermostat fitting. When the thermostat is closed, the water is routed back into the engine to recirculate. When the thermostat opens, the water is allowed to drain into the exhaust pipe on the far side of the U-bend. This creates a suction that pulls more water into the system.
Note that, on my engine, NO WATER COMES OUT OF THE EXHAUST UNLESS THE ENGINE IS WARMED UP.
Also, unlike an A-4 or most small diesels, cranking the engine for an extended time will not back-flood it through the exhaust system, which is a considerable bonus!. |
Scott
Visitor
| | Posted on Friday, December 08, 2006 - 09:48 pm: |
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Thanks for the reply, I think i have a manual for the motor at the boat, when i am up there on tuesday i will take some pictures of the motor and you can help me out. the boat is in my heated shop right now so if i need to fix little things now is the time. The motor was rebuilt by the previous owner in 1999 and runs great just wanted to bring the motor back to the correct set up maybe the ball valve is fine, but i will take a pic of where its located and you can tell me if its right or not thanks.
Scott |
Richard Shapiro
Member
Username: mainesails
Post Number: 18
Registered: 09-2005
| | Posted on Friday, December 08, 2006 - 10:06 pm: |
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I'll be happy to take a look for you.
Rich |
Richard A. Day Jr.
Senior Member
Username: richardday
Post Number: 439
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, December 09, 2006 - 09:26 am: |
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One salt water problem with the P-60 overheating seems to be the air bleed line becomes plugged. Annual inspection should include removing the fittings into the head and ex manifold or thermostat housing to make sure there is no restriction or stoppage in the fitting themselves. Just loosening the hose fitting where it joins the head fitting or other end of the hose with the engine running doesn't doesn't show any build up at the fitting entrance/exit in the head or manifold end. By removing the fitting at the annual inspection and reseating it with Neva Seize insures if you do suddenly develope a blockage from marine trash etc. it can easily be removed at sea and the blockage cleared without worrying about breaking the fitting at a very awkward moment. The symptons of air bleed blockage are a sudden rise in temperature of the engine despite plenty of cooling water out the exhaust. What is happening is the air/steam is forcing the cooling water down the top and sides of the cylinder walls. This allows the internal top of the cylinder to become red hot and a sudden flow of cooling water can crack the internal portion of the head. |
Scott
Visitor
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 13, 2006 - 11:19 am: |
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Here are some picture of our motor and and of the water routing from our manual.
[IMG]http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y14/PaperboyRacing/Sailboat%20Motor/DSC02914.jp g[/IMG]
[IMG]http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y14/PaperboyRacing/Sailboat%20Motor/DSC02911.jp g[/IMG]
[IMG]http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y14/PaperboyRacing/Sailboat%20Motor/MX-2700N_20 061213_111841.jpg[/IMG] |
Scott
Visitor
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 13, 2006 - 11:24 am: |
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We are in fresh water so salt water should not be a problem. Just wondering the best way to set the motor up we ran the motor with the intake hose in a bucket of water for about 10min and the temp guage never moved. |
Richard Shapiro
Member
Username: mainesails
Post Number: 19
Registered: 09-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 13, 2006 - 12:14 pm: |
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I have a couple of thoughts:
You can see your vent line (it is the small red line at the far right of photo 2914 leading from the head to the thermostat housing - on some engines it runs to the manifold). You should clean it just in case.
The engine will run quite well even if the temp is 100-110 degrees.
Here (in no particular order) are some thoughts on why the gauge might not have moved:
1) the wiring, gauge or sender could be broken; or
2) the engine never warmed up over 100 degrees - don't laugh this is posssible - this engine generates very little heat and I can almost rest my hand on the head while it is running under load; or
3) you had the ball valve in the bypass closed, in which case, the temp gauge will not move unless you run the engine flat out under load in fairly warm water; or
4) the bypass loop is blocked; or
5) there was no thermostat installed.
My question is as to whether any water came out of your exhaust and if so, how long after the engine was started.
If it is set up as per the manual (and as near as I can tell from the photos, yours is), water will NOT come out of the exhaust until the thermostat opens. If you got water right away, then see 3 - 5 above.
The ball valve in the bypass loop is not original issue. The position of the valve as shown will have no effect on engine cooling. It is causing almost no restriction on the bypass water flow.
By the way, don't let anyone tell you that the ball valve is on the wrong side of the thermostat. Your thermsostat is mounted backwards compared to a typical non-vee-drive installation, so the ball-valve is in the correct portion of the loop.
I would consider a complete disassembly of the cooling system in order to make sure that there are no chunks of old impeller blocking any portion. These bits love to sit in elbows etc. and cause havoc.
Rich |
Scott
Visitor
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 13, 2006 - 01:17 pm: |
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Rich there is no thermostat in the motor from what i have been told, i even found a old one in a spare parts box. I was under the assumtion that the thermostat was in the rusty diamond shaped area right near the 1st cylinder closest to the distributor. Has a 1" or so black hose going from it to the exhaust manifold.
When we ran the motor we started the motor then right away droped the pick up hose in the bucket of water and with in 30 seconds there was water coming from the exhaust.
If my thinking is correct we could leave the motor set up this way with no thermostat and the ball valve in place and just slowly close the ball valve tell we get to a desired running tempature.
How can i test the temp guage, and where should the wire go to on the motor? thanks. |
Richard Shapiro
Member
Username: mainesails
Post Number: 20
Registered: 09-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 13, 2006 - 03:03 pm: |
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The rusty diamond-shaped plate is the mounting plate for your temp sensor. The thick hose is supposed to be there - it ducts cooling water between two different internal areas of the engine.
The temp sensor is the thing on top of the square brass block on top of the diamond. The wire from that sensor should go to your gauge, along with power.
The sender works through being grounded to the block (which you can test with a continuity meter). It is essentially a variable resister.
As for testing I've not tried it, but if you were to take out the sender, jump a wire from the body of the sender to ground, dip the end of the sender in hot water, and turn on the ignition, it should work.
The thermostat goes in the t-shaped tubular fitting that is screwed into the top of your manifold. Replacement thermostat housings as well as thermostats are available at Moyer Marine, so you could check out their online catalog to see what the unit looks like. It is the old "Dole" type housing.
The unit opens up with two screws to change the thermostat and gasket.
You can certainly run the engine like that. If you do, you will have to fiddle with the valve every time you change your throttle setting. A lot of P-60s and A-4s are run that way. You have to be careful not to overheat the engine, though. It can warp the head and damage the head gasket. It's an easy fix (assuming the head bolts aren't frozen), but I would want to avoid it.
All you would need to do to run the engine the way it was designed to run would be to test the thermostat by dropping it in hot water and seeing if it opens, re-installing it (you might have to make a gasket or buy one from Moyer), and leaving the valve all the way open. However, I don't think the previous owner would have taken out the themostat and added the valve if everything was working as intended.
Also, your engine doesn't seem to be equipped with a temp warning buzzer or low oil pressure buzzer. If I was going to hand-adjust my running temp, I'd want an overheat warning. Moyer sells a kit to retrofit the buzzer to the engine. You take the senders out, replace the fittings with tee fittings, and install the extra switches. You then wire the buzzer behind your control panel.
Rich |
Richard Shapiro
Member
Username: mainesails
Post Number: 21
Registered: 09-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 13, 2006 - 03:06 pm: |
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Oh ... I forgot to add, the motor will never warm up at idle if the valve is more than a tiny bit open. Given the lack of a thermostat, I wouldn't expect the gauge to move at all. Idling with no load, this motor is producing very little heat and using very little gas. Given that it is a 340lb hunk of iron (plus the v-drive), it will take quite a long time to heat up.
Rich |
Scott
Visitor
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 13, 2006 - 03:53 pm: |
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Rich from what I understand the reason for the ball valve is that its not going to fail like the thermostat the story we heard was it was old and it failed and damaged the motor, but thats all second hand information. In your opnion what should we do? make it all stock? or leave it be and use the ball valve? we planned on adding a buzzer to the guage, or even adding a temp and buzzer up in the cockpit where you can see it, next to the rpm guage. I am not sure the choke is hooked up, if its not do you need it with a motor like this? Thanks |
Richard Shapiro
Member
Username: mainesails
Post Number: 22
Registered: 09-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 13, 2006 - 07:59 pm: |
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If it was me, I'd get a new thermostat and a spare, then install the buzzer. I'd leave the valve in place and you can switch back to doing it by hand very quickly if the thermostat fails. The only risk is that, because you're not FORCED to check the temp every 3 minutes, you might get out of the habit of checking. That's where the buzzer comes in.
I trust a thermostat more than I trust myself. There are enough distractions when boating, such as navigation, approaching traffic, girlfriend, etc. that I will forget to check/adjust the valve.
It's been a while for me, but if I remember correctly, if you simply close the valve, water pressure from the pump will force the thermostat open even if it has stuck. You could confirm this yourself in a few seconds simply by installing a thermostat and closing the valve with the engine cold. If I'm right, you'll get water out of the exhaust right away. This means that, if the thermostat fails, just close the valve and you're back in business. You wouldn't even have to take out the thermostat.
In addition, I don't like having to keep opening the engine compartment to adjust the valve.
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I feel the need for gauges in the cockpit, especially if I am going to be adjusting the water flow by hand. Having to go below to check the gauge every couple of minutes doesn't strike me as smart, even if I am using a thermostat. Moyer has everything you need. The P-60 takes the same gauges and senders as an A-4. Just extend the wiring diagram in the manual.
I'd also insist that the buzzer be in the cockpit. That's where you'll be steering the boat from. You need to be able to hear the buzzer from the wheel/tiller.
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My engine won't start without the choke. It's pretty finicky about choke adjustment while warming up. Yours may be different! I'd bet an electronic ignition would make a difference here.
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Finally, a telltale of a hot engine is excess steam coming from the exhaust. Unless it is a cold day, you shouldn't get steam. If you are, then either the engine is very hot or you have a head gasket leak.
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By the way, is your v-drive geared down? If it is, then you can ignore this, but if not, the engine will not rev to redline in forward gear. If it is not geared, you will get (depending on prop) 2100 - 2400 rpm WOT. Most mechanics who haven't dealt with this type of engine will have a cow at this. You can't overprop a diesel that way but the P-60 doesn't mind this treatment at all.
Rich |
Scott
Visitor
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 13, 2006 - 09:07 pm: |
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ok thanks for all your help i will take and get a thermostat and other stuff from moyer marine . how do i tell if my v-drive i geared down or not? so if i put a thermostat in i want to close the valve all the way or open it all the way? |
Richard Shapiro
Member
Username: mainesails
Post Number: 23
Registered: 09-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 13, 2006 - 09:35 pm: |
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You're welcome!
I don't know if your v-drive is geared and I don't know how to tell. BUT, the correct prop for an ungeared P-60 is a 12" diameter 6" pitch. If you have anything bigger, you've got a geared tranny. If you do have a 12x6, there are two replacement props on the market that will improve performance noticably.
If you have a thermostat, you should leave the valve all the way open. This way, the system should work as designed unless there is a problem elsewhere in the system.
Closing the valve is the equivalent of opening the thermostat. Closing it all the way should force water through the thermostat and over-cool the engine.
A couple of other thoughts ... have you filled the grease cup on the water pump and given it a good turn or two? Do you have an extra impeller (jabsco still makes the parts, including impellers and shafts, for the pump)? Do you have an extra set of points, condenser, dist. cap and spark plugs? Extra oil filter and gas filter elements? These are all good things to have that might get forgotten in the whirlwind that is getting a new-old boat in the water and going.
Good luck!
Rich |
Scott
Visitor
| | Posted on Thursday, December 14, 2006 - 08:31 am: |
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Yeah from just thinking off the top of my head the prop is probaly about 12". I have not filled the grease cup on the water pump and have no idea what you are talking about. We do have a extra impeller, points, plugs, filters and all that good stuff and all look new from what I can tell. The owner we bought the boat from only owned it for 2 years and went bankrupt the previous owner owned it since it was new and took great care of the boat, took it home every winter and picked a project for the winter. I am not worried about the motor at all just wanting to get all my ducks in a row so I know something about it for when we put it in the water. From my understanding the way that its set up with the thermostat it will remain closed basicly acting like a car and circulating the same water untill it gets warm enough to open the thermostat and then it will then begin to suck fresh cooler water from the lake. correct? So my plan is to take and get a new thermostat, guage and buzzer for the cockpit. and then take all the passage ways i can apart and make sure they are clean and free of build up, would it be a good idea do dump something like CLR that you use in a house to clean the inside up or do i just run the risk of breaking up larger areas of build up. One thing i noticed is we don't have a strainer on the lake water pickup do we need one in fresh water? thanks again. |
Richard Shapiro
Member
Username: mainesails
Post Number: 24
Registered: 09-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, December 14, 2006 - 09:51 am: |
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You're exactly right as to how the cooling circulation works.
As to cleaning the passages with CLR, I have a couple of thoughts:
1) I wouldn't do it unless your motor demonstates that it needs it by overheating under load despite full cooling water flow through the engine. This is typically a raw salt water cooled engine problem. The A-4 crowd has had good success with the procedure, though.
2) I'd refer you back to the Moyer site ... to the forums and answers. If I recall correctly there is a procedure to use a diluted muriatic acid or something like that. However, I also recall that hotrodders had a problem with a similar chemical that never stopped eating their blocks. I don't know the answer to that one. I know that A-4 blocks are a high silicon alloy, and are more corrosion resistant that car blocks. I'd hope P-60s are too.
3) If you do use acid, be prepared to take apart the cooling system again to remove chunks.
Cooling water strainers are standard equipment. I can't imagine running without one, BUT, your boat has survived for more than 30 years without one, so obviously it's not the most urgent item on the list.
On the back end of the water pump is a vertical tube. That is a grease cup. It needs to be filled with grease. The lid screws on loosely. Every day you run the boat, you should screw it down a turn or so. When you run out of turns, it's time to refill the cup.
The waterpump has no sealed bearing. It has a stainless steel shaft with a stuffing material and a nut on the back. The grease cup lubricates the whole assembly. If the nut dribbles, you can tighten it, but, given the age of the unit, I would take the opportunity to take it apart, examine the shaft, and replace the packing.
By the way, you need to pull the shaft out of the pump to change the impeller, as there is a setscrew. Given your access to the engine, this will be a breeze. There should be a number stamped on the pump. Jabsco will have all the parts you may need (I rebuilt mine with new shaft, grease cup, etc.).
Rich |
Karl Burton
Member
Username: karl_burton
Post Number: 4
Registered: 11-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, January 06, 2007 - 01:28 am: |
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A couple more thoughts - Globe makes high-end impellers that are astonishingly resistant to failure from overheating (or anything else).
globerubberworks.com
The one I have currently I have had in the engine for four years. It has survived three serious overheating episodes, including one that destroyed a head gasket. I've sailed this boat for 31 years, and never had an impeller last more than two years before.
Another source of problems can be the line that carries water back to the exhaust - I've had a problem with rust and scale creating excess backpressure on the water line. |
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