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richarddurgee
Senior Member
Username: richarddurgee
Post Number: 523
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, August 22, 2004 - 05:34 pm: | 
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My long time friend BoB , a retired ocean going ships captain, a diver and one who is knowledgeable in most things nautical, called me several weeks back
about an old brass shaft and propeller he had seen in a local divers private store room.Also he saw an old brass Carburetor( turned out to be a Schebler). The story was that several years back these divers were exploring a remote creek that winds it's way through a swamp when the water was down 8 or 9 feet from its present level and stumbled upon an old sunken launch. With strong lights they soon discovered many peices of metal strips and terracotta pots telling them that this was a vessel used to gather the sap from pine trees to make turpentine.
Researching , found this industry to flourish from 1890's to late 1930's, schebler carb dated in that time period.
Talking to the diver that sawed the brass shaft off and took carb, he said old engine looked like an old upright tree stump with a flywheel on the end and it had been down there a long time ?
With more research and info the area was pinpointed.
Robert a life long friend of bob's voluteered his boat and to assist topside, entering the water it was found to be almost black at 3-4 feet, subsequent dives with cave lights didn't work either they had no effect after a few feet, the only way was to dive to bottom and feel your way around. With many dives of bumping into cypress roots and stumps, bob ran into a stump with a jagged branch protruding,feeling his way around it suddenly it had a flywheel on it too,immediatly a rope was lashed around it, and with the swamp critters,creachers and gators looking on the engine saw daylight for the first time in 60 or 70 years. Some cypress planks and frames were brought up, one engine bed was also found, only Bob and I would dive this site all the others said it was to eerie for them, we had been free diving the site but now need to use scuba gear and use search patterns for further salvage.
Photos of creek in Swamp
A terracotta resin pot salvaged from old launch,
Its next to a 3/4 schebler for size comparison. they look like a modern flower pot but no hole in bottom and a hole in top side to hang pot on a nail on tree.
Next two photos are of old Turpentine Stills, the one that this old launch worked from was very remote and in those days there were little or no roads, rivers and creeks were the access and steam boats transported most goods, including the barrels of turpentine to the larger towns to market.
More of Saga to come ! |
richarddurgee
Senior Member
Username: richarddurgee
Post Number: 524
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, August 22, 2004 - 05:40 pm: |
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forgot this one !
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John Kemister
Visitor
| | Posted on Sunday, August 22, 2004 - 06:57 pm: |
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Hi Richard, what a great story! Many thanks for sharing it.It is the kind of thing we all dream about - finding an old wreck and putting the history to it. Wonderful!
My old Chapman 16' launch now has a new double carport over it, so I will be starting on the hull soon. I obtained some matching Meranti planks at some expense, 165mm by 12mm by 5.5 metres clear - rather nice timber.
Cheers.
John |
andrew
Moderator
Username: andrew
Post Number: 861
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Monday, August 23, 2004 - 06:24 pm: |
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Great story Richard!
Did you know it was a Gray before you pulled it above the surface? Sort of like reeling in a fish and not know what it is until you get it alongside the boat!
It's nice the way you have included the historical postcards too... thanks for sharing your adventure with us! |
richarddurgee
Senior Member
Username: richarddurgee
Post Number: 526
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Monday, August 23, 2004 - 08:52 pm: |
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Andrew,
We had no clue what it was until it was out of the water and brushed 60 yrs of sediment from it. Robert made the comment when he saw the tag, wouldn't be great if we could tell what year it was by the serial numbers ??
I have more photos of cleaning, disassembling,and putting it back together again , thats not rust but some sort of crusted sediment that did clean off and did not seem to harm the castings and internal parts.! with a few parts and pieces this one will run again.
More to come !! |
miro
Senior Member
Username: miro
Post Number: 146
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Monday, August 23, 2004 - 10:05 pm: |
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Gosh - some of these old engines are like the Energizer bunny - they jus' keep goin' and goin' and goin'. Great tale -
miro |
richarddurgee
Senior Member
Username: richarddurgee
Post Number: 527
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Monday, August 23, 2004 - 10:24 pm: |
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After an 11 hour drive home from salvage site the
engine is in my front yard.
Approx 60 years underwater and the grease cup is still full!
The port engine stringer, a 4" x 8" five foot long
cypress plank tapered to fit hull.
A hand hewn hull frame about 6 feet across, launch was approx 6' beam at narrow aft section and about 26' to 28' length ?
engine after much cleaning and scrubbing, the swamp smell was so strong that I took it apart outside!
Serial number 06S1489,the Model S was made from 1908 to 1913. the fourth number back from the right makes this one a 1911.
Horse/Power 6.
Model S gray denoted a mechanical oiler driven by
a belt. This is what it looked like when shipped south by the factory 93 years ago. the oiling system was removed from this one, a small drip oiler was installed and i'm sure oil mixed with gas for most of its years?
More to come. |
thomas
Senior Member
Username: thomas
Post Number: 203
Registered: 07-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 24, 2004 - 06:47 pm: |
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What a rescue!! Great job.
T |
richarddurgee
Senior Member
Username: richarddurgee
Post Number: 529
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 24, 2004 - 09:42 pm: |
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Brought the old Gray home in a tub of water, and then took it apart in a day to keep rust from playing havoc with it.
Cleaned up and disassembling it to see what water exposure had done to internals.
Piston and rings OK, top two rings were stuck with carbon before sinking!
Rod bearings are the two split pieces, the sleeve was called a Prince Albert shim, a brand of tobacco that came in a can that was widely used to shim engine bearings of all kinds when a proper repair was not available or to costly in the poorer parts of the country).)
Pulling rear flanges'
Rear crankcase housing came off easily!
Crankshaft has to be removed for further inspection and rod journal will have to be turned and a new bearing made.
Crankcase to wide to go into my press so this is method I have used sucessfully before.put a bearing splitter against flywheel, plates from hydraulic press under and made a stack of bricks to support it ( they were actually very straight up and down the camera tilted them ?
I don't like forcing these things, so before heating I backed out the nut even with end of shaft and only used my 12 pounder, smacked it soundly.
Timing gears suffered from underwater corrosion and both will have to be replaced, this one has
grown to the shaft, my smaller puller worked just fine.
The S model originally had a mechanical oiler on it ( It was taken off this engine ) the oiler line went into front lower part of crankcase and pumped oil into this brass slinger and centrifical force pushed the oil into the rod journal.
Crankshaft out, nothing here that can't be repaired,looks as if it will run again one of these days.
putting it back together next !! |
thomas
Senior Member
Username: thomas
Post Number: 204
Registered: 07-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 25, 2004 - 02:23 pm: |
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Can you give some details of the rod oil slinger?
Does it have a hole that communicates through the crank rod bearing itself? How does the oil get from the slinger into the bearing area?
T |
amanco
Member
Username: amanco
Post Number: 4
Registered: 07-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 25, 2004 - 03:29 pm: |
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Richard~
Any trouble taking the cylinder Jug off? I didn't see any dramatic pics of that operation. I have a 2-cyl engine with stuck pistons that has been soaking for about 6 months. I don't think they are rusted stuck, just gummy stuck. I was going to fill one cylinder with oil and use a zerk fitting and pump grease into the spark plug hole to push the cylinder jug off.
~Keith |
richarddurgee
Senior Member
Username: richarddurgee
Post Number: 530
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 25, 2004 - 05:17 pm: |
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Tom
There is a passage through crankshaft to rod journal, the exit hole in this journal is covered with metal from bearing spinning.
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richarddurgee
Senior Member
Username: richarddurgee
Post Number: 531
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 25, 2004 - 06:27 pm: |
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Keith
After so many years underwater the engine turned, piston was not stuck and cylinder came right off.
Cyl bore is usable , piston O.K. and will probably use same rings again !
Go easy on squeezing that grease gun if piston doesn't move you can cave piston in ! |
jb_castagnos
Senior Member
Username: jb_castagnos
Post Number: 213
Registered: 07-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 25, 2004 - 09:18 pm: |
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Richard, great story and an unbelievably well preserved engine. Was it covered with mud? It seems that mud protects engines from oxygen, parts exposed to water usually show more rust. |
thomas
Senior Member
Username: thomas
Post Number: 206
Registered: 07-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 25, 2004 - 09:18 pm: |
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It's hard to believe that engine was in shallow water (and hot Florida water I believe?) and it looks that good. The ports must have been closed
and it must have been loaded with oil. Unless this was one or those REALLY polluted creeks that's half water and half cosmoline. :-) |
richarddurgee
Senior Member
Username: richarddurgee
Post Number: 532
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 25, 2004 - 10:21 pm: |
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It's interesting That all the parts and pieces were free and came apart easily, the crank timing gear and flywheel the only exceptions.The piston after glass beading looks like any other of these old cast iron pistons taken out of these old Marine engines.
Another observance is that the engine and all it's parts was a galvanic system, with the sacraficial metal being all of the steel bolts, the case flange bolts, cylinder to crankcase,intake and exhaust manifold, and when once broken loose could be taken out by hand. the set screw in the timer must have been completely gone because the timer literally fell of its shaft whlile lifting engine to the boat, the two port valve was not on engine when raised and those bolts were gone as well. The water pump mount bolts were dissolved but the encrustation held on to it enough for recovery with the engine.The crankshaft, connecting rod,and wrist pin show no corrosion affects? we plan another dive soon to hopefully find these two parts.
I have more pictures of the engine and will post them here soon( Work is getting in way of hobby)
The stove pipe black color to the engine is the waters affect on the carbon in the cast iron, the iron is raw but when rubbed its like lamp black. I have been glass bead cleaning only inside of cases and cylinder and coating the out side with tung oil to seal it and keep that raw black color.
Lots of work- Lots of fun.
Hope this thread isn't getting to long or boring !
if Not, More to come |
rbprice
Senior Member
Username: rbprice
Post Number: 166
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 25, 2004 - 10:32 pm: |
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WONDERFUL WONDERFUL WONDERFUL - Richard you are something else.
Thanks a bunch for sharing a truly great story.
RBP |
richarddurgee
Senior Member
Username: richarddurgee
Post Number: 533
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, August 26, 2004 - 01:12 am: |
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Friend Bob just sent these old post cards from e-bay.
Old North Florida steamboat early 1900's
This is a blow up of the launch in the foreground,
same type frames and construction that we salvaged with the old Gray Marine engine. this vessel probably smaller and is not powered.
Cypress frame we salvaged with GRAY marine
More to come |
richarddurgee
Senior Member
Username: richarddurgee
Post Number: 535
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, August 26, 2004 - 01:39 pm: |
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JB
This eng was still setting in its mounts, upright,The steel mount lag bolts were dissolved down to the wood,the launch was on a sandy bottom on the side of a natural spring outlet with 60ish degree water temp year around. What the crusty sediment was I don't know, as I scraped it off around base of eng I could smell that old bilge oil and grease that had accumulated around the crankcase for as long as it was in use. The diver that took the schebler said he took the top off and could still smell gasoline, and other than a slight change of color the grease in the cup looked as if it could be used again.
Years ago I found a one lunger in a northern lake
completly submerged in the mud only part exposed was the shaft flange, after taking apart cleaning and reassembling it was no worse off than had it been stored in dry barn somwhere ?
We have reason to believe now maybe another eng in same location. Also researching other possibilities and sites as to sunken river boats like photo above, would that be a great find and project ??
JB were taking this working for a living to seriously -- seems we both missed Mystic show !! |
miro
Senior Member
Username: miro
Post Number: 148
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 31, 2004 - 02:00 pm: |
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Richard - you've just GOTTA get that engine going and bring it to Calvert next year -
miro |
richarddurgee
Senior Member
Username: richarddurgee
Post Number: 545
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 31, 2004 - 09:39 pm: |
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Have crankcase beadblasted inside and mounted on a temporary work base.
Made and installed Timer shaft lower bearing
Replaced worn out original Timer / W pump shaft
Fitting things back together
HELP
Need some parts, will pay cash anything less than a Kings Ransom
both timer gears
3 3/4 inches outside
28 Teeth
timer shaft 1/2 inch
crankshaft bore 1 5/16 with 1/4 keyway
Need a Two port valve
3 1/4 inches from center to center of mounting
bolts.
Need a Timer
ANY HELP WITH PARTS GREATLY APPRECIATED |
richardday
Senior Member
Username: richardday
Post Number: 295
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 01, 2004 - 09:49 pm: |
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Richard I may have the two port check valve will look tomorrow. |
rbprice
Senior Member
Username: rbprice
Post Number: 168
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, September 02, 2004 - 07:40 pm: |
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Dick - send me the two bevel gears and I'll get you a replacement set. |
keith
Senior Member
Username: keith
Post Number: 160
Registered: 02-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, September 02, 2004 - 10:45 pm: |
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Welcome back Mr. Price
Where have you been hiding? |
Randy Ridderbush
Visitor
| | Posted on Monday, September 06, 2004 - 02:06 pm: |
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Richard:
I have a gear 3-3/4" diameter, 28 teeth, 1/2" bore. Casting no. 24165. Found it in my brass and parts box.
Call 907-835-4152 if yo still need the gear.
Cost: Free
Shipping: Free.
Hope the best on the engine.
Randy Ridderbush
Valdez, Alaska |
johnny
Senior Member
Username: johnny
Post Number: 51
Registered: 03-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 15, 2006 - 08:06 am: |
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Richard,
I just came across this post you did back in 2004 of the Gray engine you found, what a interesting find. Thank's for sharing your adventure. You should do a article and send it to Gas Engine Magazine. People love to see and read about stuff like this.
I know you finished restoring the engine... can you post some finished photos? |
richarddurgee
Senior Member
Username: richarddurgee
Post Number: 1332
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 15, 2006 - 01:38 pm: |
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*
Glads you liked it, Haven't had that much fun in a while !
Engine pieces all cleaned and ready to go back together, still can't find the intake valve (photo and measurements above) and connecting rod bearing needs replacing, with that it should be a running engine !! |
robert
Senior Member
Username: robert
Post Number: 706
Registered: 07-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, May 22, 2016 - 01:29 am: |
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It's a little late, but I see I have one of those two port valves on a Schebler D I picked up.  |
richarddurgee
Senior Member
Username: richarddurgee
Post Number: 3792
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, May 22, 2016 - 10:44 am: |
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Robert
Actually not to late I have not found one yet !
If the one you have is 3 1/4 inch from center to center of mount bolts I would like to buy it.
let me know.
* |
robert
Senior Member
Username: robert
Post Number: 708
Registered: 07-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, June 04, 2016 - 04:02 pm: |
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Richard, when I find it again it's yours for the postage. If you want the carb too we can talk about that! |
richarddurgee
Senior Member
Username: richarddurgee
Post Number: 3802
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, June 05, 2016 - 01:33 pm: |
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Robert, hope you can find it, my email address is available by clicking on my name at left of posts.
with the manifold I believe the engine would run ?
* |
Trev Petersen
Visitor
| | Posted on Thursday, June 09, 2016 - 11:15 pm: |
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My name is Trevor Petersen, I'm a part-time (well, not much -time, really) freelancer journalist from the Pacific Northwest, and I find this 12-year post a bit fascinating. I would like some more information, and I'd maybe like to tell this story somewhere. This is my "hobby", see, and your hobby is interesting, and I like to write about hobbies, especially 12-year hobbies that came from a swamp that I stumble on days after the last post (12 years? I'm itchin' to know what happens next!). I have some questions. Please e-mail me, and THANK YOU. |
robert
Senior Member
Username: robert
Post Number: 709
Registered: 07-2003
| | Posted on Monday, June 20, 2016 - 02:31 am: |
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Richard, I found the valve, but unfortunately it is 2.75" center to center on the flange bolt holes. Overall width of the flange is 3.5". The inlet is threaded for 1" NPT and the outlet hole is 1.125" (aka 1&1/8th")
Overall it appears identical to the one shown above except that the screw cover has a square lug rather than the six point one shown above.
I hope this is one you can use??
If not, there may still be a little hope as years ago I had the remains of a Model S twin, which I put into someone else's boneyard (acreage) where it may still be. I'm not sure if the check valves were there or not now. I'll check some old drives in case there are photos which show. |
richarddurgee
Senior Member
Username: richarddurgee
Post Number: 3809
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Monday, June 20, 2016 - 02:46 am: |
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Robert, I certainly appreciate your looking for the valve. I have come across a few valves but none with the 3 1/4 between mount bolt holes.
The twin engine manifold intake is different and wouldn't work. Maybe some day one will show up !
* |
robert
Senior Member
Username: robert
Post Number: 833
Registered: 07-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, February 05, 2017 - 01:11 pm: |
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Richard, have you found that check valve yet? I just stumbled across this thread and was reminded I've never been up to look at that boneyard engine I mentioned before. It's an hour's drive away, but I'll get up there one of these days. |
richarddurgee
Senior Member
Username: richarddurgee
Post Number: 3959
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, February 05, 2017 - 02:19 pm: |
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Haven't found one with the 3 1/4 measurement
from center of mounting bolt holes !
* |
ned_l
Senior Member
Username: ned_l
Post Number: 87
Registered: 08-2012
| | Posted on Sunday, February 05, 2017 - 03:57 pm: |
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I was looking at this thread just last night and wondered the same thing.
I love the history of ghis engine. |
robert
Senior Member
Username: robert
Post Number: 835
Registered: 07-2003
| | Posted on Monday, February 06, 2017 - 11:00 am: |
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Just occurred to me! Is it possible the divers pulled it off the engine when they took the carb and prop and it perhaps broke off from the carb and was left behind? It steel bolts were holding them together I could see this happening. A trip back to the spot with an underwater metal detector might just turn it up? |
richarddurgee
Senior Member
Username: richarddurgee
Post Number: 3960
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 07, 2017 - 08:56 am: |
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In the late 1950's Pete Seeger wrote a classic song, a few words in the first verse.
" To everything there is a season and a time for every purpose "
You can see where this is going, 12 years later
now and going on 75 the time and purpose of underwater salvage work is in my past !
* |
