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RichardDurgee
Senior Member
Username: richarddurgee
Post Number: 1276
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 24, 2006 - 11:08 pm: | 
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Palmer Plant 1911
  
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Richard A. Day Jr.
Senior Member
Username: richardday
Post Number: 412
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 25, 2006 - 07:05 am: |
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Richard that is a very interesting write up. Never have seen that particular one. One thing it doesn't mention is they had nearly 500 employees at that time. One thing that puzzles me is from 1895 when they started producing engine the made 100 engines that first year. According to this article by 1910 the had produced 40,000 engines. That appears to me to mean that they made about 3000 engines a year assuming it took a few years to get up to real production. Unfortunately we don't have any identifiable serial numbers prior to 1909 to get a handle on how many engines they were producing particularly in the period 1900 to 1909. As serial numbers seemed to be applied to the next engine out of final inspection we have no way of pinning down how many of each model were made. Not that it will change the course of history just interesting statistics I guess. I do know from a letter that Frank Heckma sent me back in the 1980s they were making about 150 PW-27s a year in the 1960s.
One interesting point on the photo showing the open water beside the machine shop. That was all filled in over the next 30 years with the ash from the foundry. An amazing amount of fill and there must be a large water drain as that open water went several hundred yard to the left of the photo and that water is all filled in now but the brook it was supplied from must either have dried up or been piped under the roads etc.
First time I have seen a photo with Ralph Palmer's name attached. I have a lot of photos that he is in but no name attached. Frank Palmers photos all seem to have names attached. Don't know if that was deliberate or coincidence.
Water over the dam!!!. Last time I was in Cos Cob the only building still standing is the office building. It was under that building the First Palmer was rescued from. I later got a number of Palmer wooden patterns from under that building. Most were badly warped and some had worm holes. Nothing of great significance. A match plate for the YT valve guides, and a number of exhaust manifold patterns for the RND-4 diesel.
None of them useable today. Enjoyed the photos. Thanks for putting them up. |
RichardDurgee
Senior Member
Username: richarddurgee
Post Number: 1278
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 25, 2006 - 09:18 am: |
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Dick
This is a 1905 photo of the Palmer Yard !
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Richard A. Day Jr.
Senior Member
Username: richardday
Post Number: 413
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 25, 2006 - 10:22 am: |
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Thanks Richard. I have an original photo very similar must have been taken about the same time. The boat shop as I remember it was built in 1901 and the "new" machine shop about 1909. I will have to look that date up. I know they then closed the Mianus plant that was a couple of miles up the river. Henry Zerberini showed me loaction by the Dam and I really cannot believe the location he showed me was correct. Below the dam OK but not above the dam or a new dam replaced the "old" dam. The above dam is so steep and untouched for centuries I expect I could see no place for a factory and no known photos have surfaced to my knowledge regarding the Mianus factory. |
Ernie
Senior Member
Username: ernie
Post Number: 483
Registered: 01-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 25, 2006 - 10:36 am: |
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Here is a pic from Google Earth of the site today.
The circle on the right is where the machine shop was. The circle on the left is the aproximate location of the camera.
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Richard A. Day Jr.
Senior Member
Username: richardday
Post Number: 414
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 25, 2006 - 12:44 pm: |
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Ernie, Is the old office building about the first white building above the Dark roof on the left of the rows of dark roofs? Just slightly under 95 north bound lane.
I think the large white building in the middle is on the area that was filled in over the years. Rte. 95 covers up much of the area. |
Ernie
Senior Member
Username: ernie
Post Number: 484
Registered: 01-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 25, 2006 - 03:44 pm: |
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Dick,
I am going to do a better pic tonight or tomorrow. Lets see what it looks like then. |
Ernie
Senior Member
Username: ernie
Post Number: 485
Registered: 01-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 25, 2006 - 08:02 pm: |
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Here is a closer pic.
I don't remember much about the buildings that may still be there. It's been almost 10 years since I have been there. If any of the buildings are left from Palmer I think it would be the one with the corner almost under I 95
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Ernie
Senior Member
Username: ernie
Post Number: 486
Registered: 01-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 25, 2006 - 08:10 pm: |
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Here is another pic with the dam at the top Mianus and the big shop at the bottom Cos Cob. The distance from the Mianus Location and the Cos Cob location is just about 3/4th of a mile.
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Richard A. Day Jr.
Senior Member
Username: richardday
Post Number: 415
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, October 26, 2006 - 10:15 am: |
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Ernie, I also think the old office building is the one under the north bound lane. The pic with the dam is pretty hard to see but I think there is a low open are just below the dam to the left but the trees on the up side of the dam to the left are on a steep slope with no room for any size factory. I never thought it was only 3/4 mile. Just seemed to me to get between the two sites I had to drive several miles. The photo shows the distance is actually much less than my estimate. Is there any chance there is a second dam a little further up the river???
I stopped by when they were in the process of tearing down the old machine shop and took some photos. I really think they later added more fill on the down river end of the property. I was able to drive around the old machine shop and there must have been a couple of hundred feet of fill down river from the machine shop to the edge of what is now apparently a boat basin. Interesting photos. |
Ernie
Senior Member
Username: ernie
Post Number: 489
Registered: 01-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, October 26, 2006 - 08:40 pm: |
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Dick,
I will dig some more and post my findings |
RichardDurgee
Senior Member
Username: richarddurgee
Post Number: 1285
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Friday, October 27, 2006 - 11:24 pm: |
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Dick
This April 1905 Palmer ad claims over 10,000 of the B,C,D,E style now in use !!
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RichardDurgee
Senior Member
Username: richarddurgee
Post Number: 1286
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, October 28, 2006 - 12:56 pm: |
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Palmer July 1907
25 Engines per day !
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Robert
Senior Member
Username: robert
Post Number: 136
Registered: 07-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, October 28, 2006 - 03:20 pm: |
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Are there any Palmer descendants who may have materials related to the company? |
Richard A. Day Jr.
Senior Member
Username: richardday
Post Number: 416
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, October 28, 2006 - 05:27 pm: |
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There is one surviving member I know of and she really has no direct knowledge of the people or the company. About ten years ago I had a series of interesting telephone calls with her. I also talked with Frank Palmer's daughter back then and she really was not too helpful. I don't know if it was her age or she didn't want to talk with me. She remembered a couple of names but didn't have any informantion regarding the company or its early employees.
I do know when Columbia Air Products took over the company they threw out all the old drawings, parts, patterns, records going back to the start of the company.
Unfortunately some of the folks that started in the late 1940s know litle but lore of the early years and my experience in following up leads on lore leads me to discout much of it as not verifyeable or just not true. The classic example was the story the Palmer PAL was a Lycoming design that Palmer finished and sold.
In fact it was totally Palmer from the ground up product. Nothing to do with Lycoming. Another is the belief that from the start of the Palmer Bros company in 1895 until they end of the sucessor company the last two digits of the Palmer serial number were the year of manufacture.
So far the earliest serial number that can be identified as a serial number is for a Model C in a Palmer Launch "Merry Go Round" 050806 and the next oldest is Bill Burton's L-4 206609. I have numbers from various model that don't make any sense as we don't know how they fit into the company practice. For example What does Norman Mullings Model C 249 08 stand for. If it were 024908 it would fit the later pattern. What does B 873 08 stand for if it were B 087308 it would fit the pattern. Note I am not saying that the 08 doesn't mean 1908 all I am saying until we develope enought numbers in this period before 1909 I am not prepared to believe that these numbers give a manufacturing date. That doesn't detract from the Engine's value it simply means manufacturing date unknown it could have been almost anywhere between 1900 and 1930 for the model C .
I only know of 5 pre 1900 Palmer Bros. engnes still in existence and none of them have manufacturing dates. They only reason we know the first Palmer was made in 1893/94 is because that is its known history. Ernie Darrow has the only Palmer Bros. Model B engine I have ever heard of that has 1899 stamped on the end of the crankshaft. Ernie has seen the original paper on this engine so we are confident it is the date. It should be noted the B came on stream in 1900 and B production ended about 1911/12. The pre 1900 engines are all the same basic design as the First Palmer so there is no way they can be confused with post 1900 engines.
Richard Durgee's recent posting shows how little items can have significance in the search for historical fact. His recent posting of the 1911 article on Palmer Bros. for the first time put two photos side by side both with Frank Palmer identified by name and Ralph Palmer identified by name. I have original photos from the very early days of the company and only Frank Palmer is identified on any of them I was sure that several photos were Ralph Palmer but until I saw this posting I had never seen any photograph of Ralph identified. Now I can go back and fill in his name on each photograph. I suppose one could argue well how do you know Frank Palmer and Ralph Palmer names didn't get mixed up in the newspaper. Because I have so many of Frank's identified there can be no high probability of such a mistake. |
RichardDurgee
Senior Member
Username: richarddurgee
Post Number: 1290
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, October 29, 2006 - 08:39 am: |
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Palmer March 1898
This is the earliest palmer ad I could find !
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Richard A. Day Jr.
Senior Member
Username: richardday
Post Number: 418
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Monday, October 30, 2006 - 06:11 am: |
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Richard I have a Xerox copy of catalog of the Mianus Electric Co. which the Palmer Bros. started in 1887. Bill Nanfield loaned me the original copy and it is in mint condition. I have attached the front cover page and the next to the last page. On the next to the last pages you will find they apparently used their telephone equipment catalog with its very extensive product line to also sell engines under the name Palmer Bros.
Unfortunately the catalog is not dated but note the fact that they offer stationary, marine and automobile engines.
In the 1902/3 engine catalogs they offer a short lived automobile, 2 cylinder engine, Model B-2. That engine is obviously two model B, two strokes back to back with a light weight spoked flywheel. They also offer a gear box for automobiles. In my opinion this means this telephone catalog must be about 1902/3. It is ten pages of telephone hardware under the Mianus Electric Co. heading with this small add for engines on the next to the last page. Note the launch cut is the same as your 1898 posting.
We know from E. E. Palmer (Ralph son) writings that they gave up the telephone equipment line in about 1907 to concentrate on marine engines. I suspect the B-2 didn't last long as the automakers were quickly designing their own engines to fit their much different technical requirements. I think Palmer gave up the stationary engine manufacturing business about 1910. We do know from existing engines and catalogs Palmer Bros. also retagged small farm style stationary engines. We also know the last two Palmer launches were built in 1919 from an article in Motor Boat written by E .E. Palmer.
Your ad is the earliest Palmer Bros. launch/engine ad that I have seen.
I have a Xerox copy of a Instruction book "How to Make a DYNAMO". First published in May 1891 by Palmer Bros. Mianus, Conn. This instruction book also contains ads for Palmer Bros. telephone equipment. This is the earliest Palmer Bros. document copy I have. I do have two slightly different original copies of the instruction sheets that they provided with their engines between 1895 and early 1900s. I published these two back in 1984.
Frank Palmer believed in advertising and I bet there are more early ads and similar material out there yet to be discovered.
Allan Roney in Brisbane, AU turned up the best early photos of the 1913 era models NL and NR which became their main product line up until the mid 1920s when the ZR series came on stream.. The two strokes seemed to have died off except for the C and D model about the start of WWI. The C and D production died in the 1920s. My favorite two stroke is the Model B. Andrew has a remarkably complete Model C stationary with its base mounting, battery box, cooling tower and fuel tank built in. A rare find!!!
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Ernie
Senior Member
Username: ernie
Post Number: 490
Registered: 01-2002
| | Posted on Monday, October 30, 2006 - 07:27 am: |
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Back to the Dam subject from above. Dug a bunch this weekend and the more I dig the muddyer the water gets.
Dick, what was the statement about Palmer building in Mianus? Was it because of a dam or just water power? I know I have seen it somewhere. When was the aproximate date? From what I can find by looking at old maps and reasearching the New Haven Railroad the dam was built post 1900 to supply water to the huge power plant that the RR had on the south side of the railroad on the Mianus River. From looking at old maps it appears that there was not a dam anywhere on the Mianus river prior to that. Still digging, more to come I hope. |
RichardDurgee
Senior Member
Username: richarddurgee
Post Number: 1292
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Monday, October 30, 2006 - 09:40 am: |
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The 1898 Palmer ad posted above was the same exact ad used in every month of the Rudder magazine from March 1898 until Dec of 1899, they broke the mold with this ad and included a real life photo of one of their launches under way !
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RichardDurgee
Senior Member
Username: richarddurgee
Post Number: 1294
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Monday, October 30, 2006 - 12:10 pm: |
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This April 1901 ad is on the same waterway that comes up to the dock at the back of my house and only a few minutes to the north but a Hundred and five yrs earlier !
April 1901 and Mianus address !
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This is an April 1902 ad one that they used many times, it shows the BCDE style two cycle and the first four cycle and also has the Cos Cob address- I don't have the fill in issues but the move to Cos Cob took place in this 12 month era !
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Ernie
Senior Member
Username: ernie
Post Number: 491
Registered: 01-2002
| | Posted on Monday, October 30, 2006 - 03:44 pm: |
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So....Richard that must be you running the boat in the add |
Roger DiRuscio
Senior Member
Username: solarrog
Post Number: 209
Registered: 03-2002
| | Posted on Monday, October 30, 2006 - 03:51 pm: |
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he still pretty sharp for approx 127 years old |
RichardDurgee
Senior Member
Username: richarddurgee
Post Number: 1295
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Monday, October 30, 2006 - 05:18 pm: |
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Some info from a Palmer 1902 catalog, the address on cover is Cos Cob but because of their recent move notice engine tags say Mianus !
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RichardDurgee
Senior Member
Username: richarddurgee
Post Number: 1296
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Monday, October 30, 2006 - 07:03 pm: |
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Ernie That photo was actually taken in late 1900, William McKinely the 25th president was in office -could have been my grandfather !!
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Thanks Roger ! |
RichardDurgee
Senior Member
Username: richarddurgee
Post Number: 1297
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Monday, October 30, 2006 - 07:41 pm: |
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This old fishing photo in Florida had a note "Ernie with the hat on " But they all have hats on ? it was a long time ago and they were all younger then so will need some input here to figure this out- thought maybe the one on the stern ??
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Ernie
Senior Member
Username: ernie
Post Number: 492
Registered: 01-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 31, 2006 - 07:27 am: |
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nope I wasn't that big when I was younger. The middle left I seem to remember. |
RichardDurgee
Senior Member
Username: richarddurgee
Post Number: 1299
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 31, 2006 - 11:36 am: |
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As to the 4 cycle horizontal staionary engine in the above post I posted the photo on Smokstak and before I let go of the submit button John Merry I.D.'d it as an "Ohio Motor" ! Thanks John
These photos from Wendels
Ohio Motor Company, Sandusky Ohio
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Ernie
Senior Member
Username: ernie
Post Number: 493
Registered: 01-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 31, 2006 - 11:46 am: |
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Richard,
Yes Palmer sold Ohio engines. However some of them had 5 spoke flywheels. I am pretty shure that Ohio didn't make any for themselves with 5 spoke wheels. In addition to Ohio I have seen Herclues and Blufton engines with Palmer tags on them. |
Ernie
Senior Member
Username: ernie
Post Number: 495
Registered: 01-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 31, 2006 - 06:04 pm: |
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Here is another areial pic of the Cos Cob plant taken in 1934. The little building with the light colored roof just bleow the larger one with the dark roof is still there.
It is the one below that is just about under I 95 with half of the roof in shadow.
Here is a pic showing a side view from one of their ads.
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Richard A. Day Jr.
Senior Member
Username: richardday
Post Number: 419
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 31, 2006 - 08:02 pm: |
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At the turn of the 19th century Palmer Bros. made large stationary engines much like the Ohio. Wendel indicates in his book "American Gasoline Engines since 1872" that "there is every likelihood Palmer Bros. did not actually build this model although it does have a striking similarity to the Ohio engines as built at Sandusky, Ohio." In fact there is one of the Palmer Bros. large, side shaft engines in western PA. sitting along side a similar Ohio and it clearly could have not come from the same molds as the Ohio.
HEC believes Palmer Bros did make these large side shaft engines as they were very aggressive businessmen and by 1910 had nearly 500 employees, a large new (1907) machine shop and foundry.
The following is provided by the owner, Don Bashline.
Palmer Bros. 5HP stationary - #T230 on almost all parts. Differentiates itself from the Ohio with its 5 spoke, double faced flywheel and brass strapping to conceal the flange style mounting hardware. Casting quality is also better than the Ohio. Engine is restored to factory specs, finish and runs. Initial restoration was accomplished by Don Irvin. A smaller Palmer Bros. stationary is owned by a Pecan farmer in California. Don says "These are the only stationeries of this type I have seen or had rumors of in the last 10 years".
Unfortunately Wendel confused Mianus engine works with Mianus Electric Co which was started by the Palmer Bros. in 1887. There was no connection between Palmer Bros. and Mianus. The were lifelong competitors. Mianus started about 1897 and went belley up about 1954. |
Richard A. Day Jr.
Senior Member
Username: richardday
Post Number: 423
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, November 09, 2006 - 08:31 pm: |
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Richard A. Day Jr.
Senior Member
Username: richardday
Post Number: 424
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, November 09, 2006 - 08:45 pm: |
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Well I managed to screw it up again. The first picture shows an old tub grinder and in the back ground to the right are stacked model F or K cylinders. I don't remember when flurescent lights came out but note the flurescent light over the tub grinder. At this stage the plant was still overhead belt drive and many electric motors were being added. Raynal Bolling told me that he rowed a boat through the machine shop during the 1938 hurricaine and they had to have rewound and replace over 300 electric motors. Picture 2 shows a ca 1901 veiw of the then new boat shop at the Cos Cob location. Picture 3 Shows the machine shop looking south. Note the two flurescent lights over the horizontal boring mill on the right hand near side. I have not figured out what model the crankcases are for. I had another boat shop photo but I don't seem to be able to follow simple instructions. |
RichardDurgee
Senior Member
Username: richarddurgee
Post Number: 1344
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 06, 2006 - 12:42 am: |
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Palmer new assembly Shop 1925
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