| Author |
Message |
    
captain bill
| | Posted on Thursday, August 22, 2002 - 04:03 pm: | 
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I'm looking for a photo or "cut" of a Palmer model "C" from 1904, 1905, 1906. Anyone? Interested in when the crankcase design changed. Bill |
andrew
| | Posted on Thursday, August 22, 2002 - 04:30 pm: |
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Bill,
I assume this is the later style...?
I also have a copy of a catalog from 1901 (I think) that shows the earlier style castings. I guess you are trying to pinpoint the change within the 1904, 05, 06 years.
Dick Day are you there....???
Regards,
Andrew |
captainbill
| | Posted on Thursday, August 22, 2002 - 05:54 pm: |
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Yep! That's a "new" one Andrew, 1907 or later.I'm guessing the change took place in 1904- 1906. The "tombstone" removable intake plate in the "cut" you show allowed for inspection of the lower connecting rod and could be replaced should the pipe threads be damaged. I would like to know when this change was made. In 1903 Palmer did not have this removable plate, just a threaded hole into the crankcase. Since the "C" type was introduced in 1900 very few changes were made until it was discontinued, but this was one of them. Bill |
captainbill
| | Posted on Thursday, August 22, 2002 - 07:28 pm: |
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It's Bill again. The "C" type pictured in your photo Andrew is a "wet" head(water cooled) Palmer "C" type of later design, maybe 1920's, however it clearly shows a boss above the exhaust outlet,(top bump on the right of the photo) presumably with a brass plate attached. What the heck is this for? On the opposite side of the engine this boss was the attachment point for the make and break ignition & water pump guide. I have a Palmer wet head without this boss as well as a hot head (none water cooled) version with this same boss. By now I'm sure the non-Palmer guys are yawning, someone have a clue? Andrew, what year was your cut from? Bill |
Richard Day
| | Posted on Thursday, August 22, 2002 - 08:54 pm: |
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Working on it. Trying to locate several references that would help. May take me a few hours. What year is you photo Andrew. I cannot make out much as it is pretty dark. Can you snail mail me a copy that might be a little clearer? I think I would put the change about 1906. It is hard to be sure as we don't know the system they used to identifye models by year for repair parts purposes. Maybe they didn't and found they had to as they had so many requests that for parts and they couldn't really identifye the year the engine was made. |
andrew
| | Posted on Thursday, August 22, 2002 - 10:31 pm: |
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Bill and Dick,
I think that page is from a 1928 catalog. Here is a link to a higher resolution view... give it time to load and it will become more clear.
I have also found a 1906 Palmer catalog that seems to show the B, C, D models with the "newer" castings. See below. Note the 1906 date on the back of the catalog.
 |
captainbill
| | Posted on Friday, August 23, 2002 - 10:01 am: |
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Thank you Andrew. Looks like we're down to 1904-05 as the probable date the casting change for the crankcase took place. This was likely a "running" change as old style castings ran out, Henry ford made a practice of this much to the consternation of early ford collectors. Hope someone comes up with a 1904-05 catalog! Bill |
andrew
| | Posted on Friday, August 23, 2002 - 10:28 am: |
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Bill,
I wonder if they "immediatly" updated catalog photos to reflect minor model changes....???
Illustrations and photos were expensive!
Regards,
Andrew |
captain bill
| | Posted on Friday, August 23, 2002 - 01:06 pm: |
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You're right regarding Illustrations & photos Andrew. Palmer ( as well as others) in fact would comment that a certain "cut" did not reflect improvements made. Miner changes were described, not illustrated. In 1903 Palmer introduced the hollow connecting rod and wrist pin to better lubricate the lower rod bearing. This change was shown as an illustration of a piston/rod cutaway! They must have placed great importance on this feature. Other improvements in that same year were described " parts which were formerly made of iron are made of bronze". Bill |
Richard Day
| | Posted on Friday, August 23, 2002 - 08:53 pm: |
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Still looking for the catalog or document where it mentions the Model C and D as being available with a wet or dry head. The 1903 catalog mentions the E as having a wet head. I don't think the 1903 bronze con rod lasted very long as the broken one I have shows a fracture at the big end. The hole through the center must have weakened the rod badly. I have been looking at catalogs trying to come up with a date when Palmer launches were made with square sterns. I have not nailed it down but it does appear that it must have been about 1910. Don't know for sure but that does seem close. Will keep working on it. The three Cs I have all have hot heads although the head studs on two were for wet heads but the hot heads are factory not just a piece of steel plate cut out as a head. |
captainbill
| | Posted on Friday, August 23, 2002 - 09:46 pm: |
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Andrew, as long as Dick has brought up the "square stern" Palmer launch in this thread ( thank you Dick) this is another area in Palmer's early history that remains unclear. We know Palmer made launches from as early as the late 1890's until the late 1900'S, maybe early 20's. This is a well documented fact. After moving to the new facilities in Cos Cob in the early 1900's, boat building became an important part of the total business. Early literature shows a "Fantail" design which is refered to as "our regular launches". Later Palmer literature also depicts "V" sterns, Torpedo sterns, and square sterns. Palmer had boats built for them as well, to customer specifications using Palmer engines of course! Anyone with Palmer literature showing these variations? Bill |
Richard Day
| | Posted on Saturday, August 24, 2002 - 09:30 am: |
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I forgot to add that it is clear that Palmer Bros. as distinct from the sucessor "The Palmer Engine Co." Often used photos that did not relate to the actual year of the catalog. The classic exammple is the YT-1 photo showing the priming cup coming out the cylinder on the top forward quarter on the starboard side.
For this to have been real it would have meant that the water jacket had to be solid at that point. I asked Henry Zerberini about that photo and he laughed and said they never made a YT-1 like that. He was there from 1922 to 1968 and very sharp. Other examples are the ZR-3 and ZR-4 of the 1926 and 1928 versions showing the gear waterpump when in fact they quickly went back to the plunger pump after the disastrous problems with the gear pump. The text of the catalog points out pump is not a gear pump even though one is shown in the picture. Bill is right in that one has to study the text of all the catalogs and other documents to find out what and in some cases when changes were made. Comparing engines with known serial numbers also helps to identifye changes by model year. One of the reasons I would like to photograph all the Palmers in the Mystic collection is they have probably 20 or more ZR's and most are very complete (but badly cracked)including their serial numbers. I cannot think of a better way to realy nail down many of the changes in the ZR series. I hope to get there late this fall before really cold weather sets in. |
Richard Day
| | Posted on Sunday, August 25, 2002 - 03:20 pm: |
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Further on the Model C changes. The First catalog I have showing the Schebler model D is 1912. All prior year catalogs show the Monarch Mixing valve. Curious they did not show the Palmer mixing valve mounted on engines although some of the texts say that unit is prefered on the larger engines. They also say they will provide any carburetor or mixing valve the customer specifies.
With regard to the round/square stern issue. All catalog years 1900 up to 1910 when they brought out separate engine and launch catalogs make the following statement. "All our regular stock launches have round sterns." The 1910 launch catalog says. The 17' foot launch is in round stern only. The 20, 25' and 30' open launch is available in a quare or compromise stern. Raised deck cruisers are available in square, compromise or V transom. The V bottom launch is available in square stern only. I might add the V bottom lauch is not a particularly attractive hull design. All the square and V type sterns are in mahogany.
It seems to me this implies that the square stern launches less than 17' feet must have been later than 1910. I have no catalog showing launches after 1910. Apparently they went to separate catalogs for stationary "hit and miss" style engines as they say write for that catalog. Simarly for seperate launch catalogs and separate engine catalogs. |
andrew
| | Posted on Thursday, September 19, 2002 - 10:23 pm: |
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More on the Palmer square stern launch from Dick Day...
Quote:Bill Nanfield has found a ca 1900 Palmer catalog that I have never seen. I have several of that period that contain much of the same
material but this one pins down for the skeptics that Palmer Bros. did manufacture and offer for sale square stern launches as early as 1900. I have searched for years for proof of this as years back at the Antique Boat Show at Clayton a man showed up with a square stern Palmer Bros. launch and the judges refused to allow it to be shown as a Palmer launch. They used words to the effect that "Palmer Bros never made a square stern launch". I know they did after 1910 but could not bridge the gap 1900 to 1910. Let me quote from page 8 of the ca 1900 catalog. The subject is complete launches. They had found they could sell a lot more engines if they came in a complete
launch.
"Square Stern Boats at same price as Round 17-ft. boats.Lockered $20.00 extra. .... 16-ft. Square Stern Lockered boats same finish and width as 17-ft.. $215.00."
As far as I am concerned this nails it down
without any question.
Thank you, Dick
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andrew
| | Posted on Thursday, September 19, 2002 - 10:24 pm: |
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This "might" be the cover of the manual Dick is refering to... I'm not sure, but I think it is 1900....
 |
Richard Day
| | Posted on Thursday, September 19, 2002 - 11:18 pm: |
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The problem is that cover we now know appears on two very different versions of the ca 1900 catalog. Thanks for the help Andrew I am sure Bill Nanfield will be very happy to know that his square stern Palmer Launches could be at least 1900 or perhaps earlier. I also hope the judges at Clayton read this and correct their understanding of the matter. Wish we had more hull numbers or even one with its original engine with a serial number or other markings that would indicate its year of manufacture. Patience, Patience, Patience !!! |
andrew
| | Posted on Thursday, September 19, 2002 - 11:34 pm: |
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That cover that I posted above may be Bill's manual. It is a manual that was sold on ebay within the past couple of weeks. I had made a copy of the cover when it was listed for my records... so I don't know any more about it than what was listed, and I don't know who owns it now.... not me...
Regards,
Andrew |
Richard Day
| | Posted on Friday, September 20, 2002 - 05:15 pm: |
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No matter they both look alike on the cover and most of the text. |
bilpalmer
| | Posted on Friday, September 20, 2002 - 10:48 pm: |
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I have the same 1900 catalog in my files stating the same about the square sterns on
pg 8. It has letters from customers also with
dates from 1898 to May 29, 1900.
Pg 26 has info about horizontal 4 cycle stationary engines from 2 HP to 50 Hp. |
Richard Day
| | Posted on Saturday, September 21, 2002 - 05:29 pm: |
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Great! I had visions of some skeptic claiming Bill fiddled with the text not that I think he would do such a dastardly thing. There can no longer be any question that Palmer made square stern launches. I have often wondered how people could claim they never made them. They must have listened to too many watercooler yarns. |
captain Bill
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 25, 2002 - 11:18 am: |
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Thanks for all the help Guys. Bill |
richarddurgee
| | Posted on Friday, September 27, 2002 - 08:25 pm: |
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This is the only Palmer picture i have seen with
a mixer (not a carb) mounted on engine ! 1906
Rudder magazine Ad.
 |
Richard Day
| | Posted on Saturday, January 04, 2003 - 07:33 pm: |
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That is the missing link. Its a 1906 Palmer model N. It disapears in 1907. Why?? I have wondered for many years if there ever was an N.
Andrew sent me a 1906 catalog copy that shows that engine. Now to find one!!!! |
Richard Day
| | Posted on Saturday, January 04, 2003 - 09:34 pm: |
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I forgot to add note the swing arm timer. The same catalog shows the Q with a swing arm timer. |
Robert
Senior Member
Username: robert
Post Number: 144
Registered: 07-2003
| | Posted on Monday, December 04, 2006 - 12:23 am: |
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Have some photos of an early Palmer C, recently acquired by a local museum. It was found more than twenty years ago. It belonged to a lighthouse keeper.
Tried to post photos, but "too many external links" it says...
Andrew, shall I send them along? |
Andrew Menkart
Moderator
Username: andrew
Post Number: 796
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Monday, December 04, 2006 - 08:42 am: |
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Robert,
Posting of photos should not have anything to do with "too many external links..." unless you are posting "links" to photos somewhere else on the internet as opposed to actually posting the photos here in your post.
I have limited the number of external links per post to 5 as a spam prevention measure. Some of the spammers try to post large numbers of links.
If you are linking to external photos keep it under 5 per post.
If you are actually posting photos you should be able to do any number of them. Send them to me if you have trouble. |
