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wrenchhead531
New member
Username: wrenchhead531
Post Number: 1
Registered: 07-2005
| | Posted on Monday, March 13, 2006 - 09:01 pm: | 
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I have been waiting to post here till I had the engine and tag in hand but have now acquired a YT-1 from my father who has owned it in Hawaii for many years, the only history I have of this engine is that it made it's way to Hawaii by way of Wis. and was never run in the salt of the Islands. It does have the tag but I have not been able to ascertain the condition yet other than it is complete with prop , shaft ,thru-hull fittings and glands it appears to be very clean with very good condition piant of a greenish color. The serial number is 1970324. Hope this adds to your list Mr. Day. Any info on this engine would be very much apreciated and I will try and post some pics in the very near future. |
Richard A. Day Jr.
Senior Member
Username: richardday
Post Number: 309
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 14, 2006 - 05:19 pm: |
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Interesting YT-1. Probably the third oldest YT-1 known. Would like to know is the spark plug vertical or facing aft about 45 degrees. Cuno timer or Maganeeter?? Only have five new serial numbers for 2005 so will wait until I get a few more before I publish an update. I think Andrew sell a reprint and update of the YT manual. |
Andrew Menkart
Moderator
Username: andrew
Post Number: 585
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 14, 2006 - 06:47 pm: |
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The YT manual is for sale here.
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Richard A. Day Jr.
Senior Member
Username: richardday
Post Number: 310
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 15, 2006 - 07:06 am: |
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Further research show 1970324 is Probably the 5th oldest YT-1. I have one listing for a 1922 YT-1 but no serial number. Don't know the source of the 1922 date and have had no luck extracting the source from the owner. Some individuals will say their engine is 1907 etc. but when you try to find out the real date that becomes next to impossible. In my opinion a stated early date in itself doesn't make an engine more valuable. Condition and rarity are far more significant than a known or claimed early date that cannot be authenticated. |
David Hope
New member
Username: wrenchhead531
Post Number: 2
Registered: 07-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, March 16, 2006 - 09:26 am: |
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Thanks for the replies. The spark plug is angled in its mounting and I do see that most of the pics I have seen the flywheel is solid but this one has a spoked flywheel. I hope to get some pics up this weekend but as I am working and the engine is in my brothers garage I do not have access as often as I would like . I am really itching to get started on this. Thank you for the link for ordering the manual. |
John Hope
New member
Username: cueball
Post Number: 1
Registered: 03-2006
| | Posted on Friday, March 17, 2006 - 07:24 pm: |
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Richard the engine has the Cuno timer |
David Hope
New member
Username: wrenchhead531
Post Number: 3
Registered: 07-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, April 15, 2006 - 10:16 am: |
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this is attemp 4 to get some pics up. This is the YT-1 my brother and I recently recieved. The water jacket is basically junk but we are working on options . Of course if anyone has a spare laying around we would love to hear about it....lol
okay these pics are just not working for me . Anyone want to offer some help if I email them? |
Andrew Menkart
Moderator
Username: andrew
Post Number: 635
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, April 15, 2006 - 01:11 pm: |
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David,
You are welcome to email them to me and I will post them here.
Please let me know exactly where you are running into trouble posting picture. I have been trying to make the process easier and am always interested in where people have trouble. |
Andrew Menkart
Moderator
Username: andrew
Post Number: 636
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, April 15, 2006 - 01:15 pm: |
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David,
Is this your engine? I saw you had used the photo resizer...
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Richard A. Day Jr.
Senior Member
Username: richardday
Post Number: 319
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, April 15, 2006 - 07:42 pm: |
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The head is 1921 to 1925 With the spark plug at 45 degrees. The crankcase breather valve is pre 1937. Carburetor is early. Need more photos to provide more input. Do you have a serial number? |
Andrew Menkart
Moderator
Username: andrew
Post Number: 638
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, April 15, 2006 - 09:10 pm: |
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Dick,
He posted the serial number in the first posting above: 1970324.
He is the same person that started this thread of discussion.
I will see if he can email me more photos to post here. |
David Hope
Member
Username: wrenchhead531
Post Number: 4
Registered: 07-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, April 15, 2006 - 09:49 pm: |
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Thanks Andrew! I have sent you a couple more by email any help is very much appreciated. Guess no one has that water jacket laying around with my name on it, Just kidding ,I know this is next to immpossible to find but we live in an area rich in foundry work and have a few good connections and think that a replacement casting is a good possibility. We already have a pretty good 3d cad drawing 99% done and hope to have a mold piece ready soon. We will keep all interested on the progress. Thanks again, Dave |
David Hope
Member
Username: wrenchhead531
Post Number: 5
Registered: 07-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, April 15, 2006 - 10:03 pm: |
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okay maybe I wasn't awake this morn. Let me try this again... Mr Day is this piece an accessory that palmer sold for the YT-1 or was this an ad-on someone purchased for the engine?
it says spark on the left and throttle on the rightand the linkages look like a good fit but am not sure that it came with this engine? |
Richard A. Day Jr.
Senior Member
Username: richardday
Post Number: 320
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, April 16, 2006 - 08:36 am: |
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First, Thanks Andrew for pointing out the serial number. Didn't put the two together. Back on Mar 13 2006 I added it to the listing and noted it is the 6th oldest YT-1.
The Vancouver engine is probably a 1922 cylinder on a later base. This engine appears to be original from what I can see. I would like to see more of it.
David a couple of points. The throttle quadrant could be any maker. If there are no Palmer markings I would assume it to be a generic product and your best hope to identifye the maker would be if someone reading the page comes up with a copy and his happens to be marked. Many makers of brass castings would have their company mark incised or cast on the piece. I get the impression that I can see some sort of marking on the face of the quadrant.
With regard to casting a replacement cylinder William Fiege made the patterns and core boxes for the YT cylinder. Not only a monumental job he also made the same for the exhaust manifold for the YT-2. Added to that he then made the same for the NL-1 cylinder. Each of these items took months of work. He then had 2 YT-1 cylinders and manifolds cast at a very good small foundry in Baltimore but I don't think they ever want to see Bill at their doorstep again. Hollow water jacket cylinders are not an easy casting to make. Bill tried a long experienced foundry that had made the NL headless type cylinder for nearly 90 years with great success. They failed after repeated tries. I gather part of the problem was the old timers that had gotten to their 80s and 90s in the foundry had finally all retired and the younger men that were training to carry on just were unable to get the yeild with this type cylinder that made the product marketable. I might add tha Palmer switched to demounable heads for the NL, NR series to the ZR series in about 1924 according to Raynal Bolling a life long member of the company and sucessor company. The reason was simply that by 1920 the older men in the foundry were retiring and the yeild for headless cylinders was not good.
Another example of the foundry skill problem developed in WWII when the yield for spoked flywheels for the ZR series was not acceptable due to inexperienced wartime help. Therefore they switched to the disk type flywheel which was relativly easy to cast. The watermen were not happy with their wartime replacement engines and the first thing they did is take the old spoked flywheel and put it on their new engine. That permited them to "Stomp" on the spokes to start.
Bill took his patterns to the Cat Tail foundry and they managed to cast 5 good NL cylinders but I gather it was not an easy task. I have one of the five and you cannot tell it from the orignals that came from Palmer or MFCO who made Palmer's iron casting post 1937. I don't want to discourage you but point out that creating the patterns and core boxes is just the start of the problem.
I suggest you talk to Bill Roe who managed to create a YT-1 cylinder using the original cylinder and putting a steel sleeve for a new water jacket around it. I have not seen it but his work is first class and he may be able to put you on a cheaper and faster course to get your engine up and running. The head for the YT-1 is ok for the head on the forward cylinder of the YT-2 but the aft head on the YT-1 is a mirror image of the forward head.
I have the core boxes and pattern for the YT-1 head that was made in the pattern shop at Beltheman Steel, Sparrows Point, Md. You will need to make sure that your head has not rusted through into the holes for the hold down studs or under the valve seats. The rust through into the hold down holes can be dealt with simply by filling with RTV but the rust out in the valve passges is probably a lost cause if the rust is salt water rust.
You are welcome to borrow the head patterns if you need them but finding a foundry that will even attempt the casting is on your nickel.
Good Luck. |
David Hope
Member
Username: wrenchhead531
Post Number: 6
Registered: 07-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, April 16, 2006 - 01:21 pm: |
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Thanks for all the info. Mr. Day. Yes we are very aware of the difficulty in trying to produce a copy of this water jacket but my brother and myself are a bit on the crazy side and need something to occupy the time and give us an excuse to hide in the shed for hours on end ( attached beer garden) We are in no hurry as we want to do it right. The water jacket had a previous repair attempted as can be seen in the pics by wrapping it but it was a very poor job . I will post a close up of the carb later.
Thanks again for sharing your expertise. Dave |
Andrew Menkart
Moderator
Username: andrew
Post Number: 639
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, April 16, 2006 - 03:21 pm: |
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Dave,
Here is one of the additional pictures you sent. The other was an unknown format that I can't use.
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David Hope
Member
Username: wrenchhead531
Post Number: 7
Registered: 07-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, April 16, 2006 - 06:55 pm: |
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Thanks Andrew. That pic shows the poor job done wrapping the water jacket.
I am wondering how to get a hold of Richards serial number list?
I have a couple shots with the water jacket off the engine and the tag attached but the glare from the sun makes the tag unreadable so will have to take a few more . Once again Thanks to all you guys and especially you Andrew for hosting such a great site and bringing together all this wealth of information that will most likely be lost without help from people like you.
Dave |
Richard A. Day Jr.
Senior Member
Username: richardday
Post Number: 321
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, April 16, 2006 - 07:07 pm: |
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By all means have at it and having a beer garden next door will certainly ease the pain. A YT-1 with a Flywheel with spokes is a new one for me. I wonder if it is original? What is its dia? The drip oiler on the crankcase fill plug I don't think is original Looks like an add on. Raised boss on the aft port face of the crankcase casting for the magneto support would suggest 1924 is probably correct. I wonder if there is a crankcase oil level petcock below the breather valve? Current evidence suggests that was not added until 1926. What model carburetor is on this engine? It is shown in a number of Palmer photos of engines they made. |
David Hope
Member
Username: wrenchhead531
Post Number: 8
Registered: 07-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, April 16, 2006 - 07:22 pm: |
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I have to believe this is the original flywheel but being new to this I am guessing. I was just looking at some of your articles on this site and the intake manifold is much shorter on this one. I thought I had a close up of the carb but guess I was wrong, I will snap a few soon . Here a few other shots I had. 
The front oiler obviously has a broken glass, it was broken in shipment from Hawaii, but I think that is an easy fix.
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John Hope
New member
Username: cueball
Post Number: 2
Registered: 03-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, April 16, 2006 - 07:38 pm: |
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The flywheel is 12" diameter. The Carb has Made in USA Mod B B22 stamped on it. That is all the markings I can find. It appears the throttle linkage was homemade not sure. |
David Hope
Member
Username: wrenchhead531
Post Number: 10
Registered: 07-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, April 27, 2006 - 12:14 pm: |
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Mr. Day, was wondering how I might get in touch with Bill Roe? You say he was able to cast 5 heads...maybe he still has one available? |
Richard A. Day Jr.
Senior Member
Username: richardday
Post Number: 460
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Monday, January 29, 2007 - 02:48 pm: |
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In reviewing Davids comments I just noted the Bill Roe comment regarding 5 heads. It was Bill Fiege that had 5 NL cylinders cast. At present J.B. Castagnos is making the patterns for the YT head and if he succeeds you may be able to get one from him. Knowing JB I believe he will succeed. He may also try to have some YT cylinders cast from Bill Fiege's patterns. Don't know at the moment how JB is progressing but knowing him the impossible takes a little longer but its get done.
I have never seen another YT with a spoked flywheel. There is something about the flywheel that doesn't look like Palmer Bros. Don't know what but just doesn't. |
