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| Removing engine from Sailboat ? |
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Message |
    
Nick Fort
New member
Username: nfort
Post Number: 1
Registered: 02-2006
| | Posted on Saturday, February 25, 2006 - 12:21 am: | 
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I need to remove my Palmer p60 from my Islander 30 Sailboat so I can do a teardown and possible rebuild. I would appreciate any tips on getting it out of the engine compartment, out of the cabin and onto the dock. Thanks Nick |
Eddie Ross
Senior Member
Username: eddie
Post Number: 105
Registered: 04-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, February 25, 2006 - 11:32 am: |
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If you get the thing out, do you really want to put it back in? Resale wise you will have a boat without an engine after you are through putting it back in. I'm the first one to help someone keep a P-60 going but you should consider some of the low cost new diesels out there, considering the time and expense involved in taking it out and putting it back in. |
Nick Fort
New member
Username: nfort
Post Number: 2
Registered: 02-2006
| | Posted on Saturday, February 25, 2006 - 01:26 pm: |
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If the Palmer manifold is good and the engine looks rebuildable, I would like to put it back in as it would be alot of extra work, motor mounts, alinment,exhaust, etc to re power with diesel. The Palmer is basic old 50's technology that is easy to understand and looks easy to rebuild. I would add a freshwater flush to the system though. Resale is not a concern. But I would like to hear some tricks of the trade on how to get it out of the boat as I have never done that, but have rebuilt engines. A cherrypicker in the boat? Is the boom strong enough to use ? Dismantel the engine in the boat and reassemble in the boat? Thanks Nick |
Richard A. Day Jr.
Senior Member
Username: richardday
Post Number: 297
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, February 25, 2006 - 04:24 pm: |
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If straight drive it weighs about 350 with reduction gear aft of reverse gear about 380. Any boat yard would be able to pick it up easily with a back hoe or the typical boom cranes they have. I would remove the carburetor to make it less vunerable to being damaged. there is a lifting ring normally on the aft end of the cylinder head so it should be easy to grab. |
Eddie Ross
Senior Member
Username: eddie
Post Number: 106
Registered: 04-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, February 25, 2006 - 11:41 pm: |
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If you are dock side you can use the boom to get it up and through the companionway then use it to swing out to the dock. Use two by fours, crates ect. as fail safes as you go up.
Note: There are after market new cylinder heads still being made for tractors and there are rebuild kits. |
Nick Fort
New member
Username: nfort
Post Number: 3
Registered: 02-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, February 26, 2006 - 11:23 am: |
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Thanks for the information an ideas. Your forum is great and I learned more about Palmer engines in a few hours than I could have in years of owning one. I am sure I will be asking more questions after tear down. Keep up the good work. Enjoy, Nick |
Bill Champion
Visitor
| | Posted on Sunday, February 26, 2006 - 01:25 pm: |
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I used the boom to remove and replace the P-60 on my Morgan 35. Plan for skinned knuckles. Remove anything you can (like the carb) to give you some clearance. Mine had to swing forward quite a bit to get over the threshold for the engine compartment and up the companionway. Use a multipart block and tackle and make sure the boom is well supported, but the weight is not too much for most booms to handle. |
Nick Fort
Member
Username: nfort
Post Number: 4
Registered: 02-2006
| | Posted on Monday, February 27, 2006 - 10:56 pm: |
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When I was looking for an engine from a cub lo-boy, I noticed the cub lo-boy comes in model # 154,184 and 185. Is there any difference in the engine block and head with these 3 models? Thanks Nick |
Eddie Ross
Senior Member
Username: eddie
Post Number: 109
Registered: 04-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 28, 2006 - 06:13 am: |
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Should be OK. The thing to look out for is that it IS NOT the Cub Cadet. The Cadet model is a completely different engine. The IH tractor engine that you want is referenced as C60. Be sure to know where the Palmer is different from the tractor engine. Among the differences are the water pump housing and trim, crankshaft, flywheel, fitting in cylinder head for air bleed line, water hose fitting atop cylinder head (where the thermostat would be in a tractor), distributor, exaust manifold, starter and alternator. Copper head gasket is recommended for running in salt water. |
Dean
Visitor
| | Posted on Friday, March 03, 2006 - 02:20 am: |
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I recently removed my P-60 from my Islander 30. I removed the starter, alternator, manifold, head, flywheel, reverse gear and all the other parts that looked heavy and easy to remove. There are extra holes in the front brace and aft mounting flages, I used two pieces of short scrapt 1/2 line to bridle across these (fore and aft bridle), then used a block and tackle (preventer rig) to connect to a wrap on the boom with the main haliyard to the wrap for support (not loading the smaller topping lift). For the flywheel, just remove the 4 bolts and pry it off (short pieces of 2x4 help to tip the engine up) and its easier to carry up the dock without the weight of the flywheel. It takes three crew to lift and hoist, and a bit of effort to swing the engine around the bulkhead (without hitting the compass, if you have instruments there); but basically easy work. Freeing any rusted bolts is more time consuming than removing the block.
I looked into diesel repower options and found new engines in the $6K to $9K (yanmar Atomic-4 replacement) range, but couldn't find one I was confident would fit the foot print without modifcation (maybe redrill the stringers to reposition new motor mounts, which on the Islander 30 could accomodate a wider mount if the drop would also fit). One of the tractor sites offered a fully rebuilt block for $1699, but I wasn't confident the crankshaft would be sutiable (Richard has previously stated that the P-60 shaft was customized by IH for Palmer), so I don't recommend that short cut. http://www.yesterdaystractors.com has a full block kit with all the valve replacements, oversized pistons, bushings, pins, rods, gaskets and seals for $499 ( I missed that oppertunity, but it might be a better deal to get it all at once if you have to grind and rebore). The kit can be customized for overbore and grinding, but some sizes cost more. If you do need a rebore and still do all the dismantle yourself, it may be tough to beat the $1699 price point with machinists labor, but you could cut some corners and let it burn a little oil or use it for a few more years.
I've heard some folks say the low compression engine is easy to maintain and has great longevity and others say they were glad to kiss their flathead goodbye (YMMV). If your manifold is rusted thru or cracked you may have nothing to work with, so take off the manifold and carborator first and give them a thorough inspection. Then ask yourself if you really NEED to do a full tear down. Does your compression REALLY warrant a rebore? Pulling the head could give a better view of valves. But do you really need to replace them? A new copper head gasket could cost another $150 just to find out. Read the owners manual, there are instructions there to replace the valves without removing the block and how to determine (from the oil presure reading) if the crank bearings are badly worn. My unexperienced recomendation to Nick is: "don't do anything you don't absolutely need to do", but that's just free advice and worth only what you paid for it.
The Islander 30 does afford enough room to change the valves in situ; but replacing the crankshaft bearigs may be really hard to do. There may not be enough drop to pass a wrench beyond the baffold in oil pan to reach the aft bearings and the aft bolt on the oil pan may be goofy (vice grips work). |
Richard A. Day Jr.
Senior Member
Username: richardday
Post Number: 305
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Friday, March 03, 2006 - 08:34 pm: |
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Dean, Just take your marine crankshaft and any IHC tractor rebuilder can grind it for any of the oversize bearing inserts with no problem and then rebuild a Cub Tractor short block using your crankshaft. That way you will have an essentially new engine and all you have to do is bolt on the cast iron crankcase and marine trim. The IHC changes to the crankshaft do not effect the rebuilding job in any meaningful way. Just make sure you have a good exhaust manifold before you start. |
Dean
Visitor
| | Posted on Saturday, March 04, 2006 - 02:45 am: |
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My intent was to alert Nick (or others) that some of that some of the tractor sites sometimes have rebuilt freshwater blocks which may be useful to owners of blocks that have damage from saltwater (and the price l saw when this was last available, last year). When considering the value proposition of buying a finished rebuild intended for tractor use, the buyer needs to be aware of the additional cost, risk and effort required to replace the tractor crankshaft with the marine crankshaft. (Am I repeating this information correctly, that Nick needs to preserve his Palmer crankshaft if he decides to replace the block?)
Furthermore, I wanted to offer Nick a ballpark figure (+/-$300)for cost of "tear down" and/or rebuild so that he could make a more informed decision on whether to remove the engine from the hull or not. Nick never mentioned whether he was considering the removal because of a specific problem or because he felt it was "time to clean it up".
In my experience, I have been very dissappointed in the amount of time it has taken me to remove the engine, rebuild it and put it back. I wouldn't want him to "share the grief" if he had other boat projects more worthy of tinkering.
Although I've never had my P-60 running, I've laid it all in pieces and I've seen all the guts; and it looks to me like an engine that just keeps on going, and going even if its a little sick below the head. With the usual bits of cleaning, maintenance and replacing those little hoses; it should run as well as it does until it stops. Why would it make sense to do a "timely" tear down? If its not completely seized or smoken' like a Hikawi, why take it out of the boat at all?
The nastiest problem I've seen is the oil uptake filter. It seems to get clogged with tar over the years. I've been told this can be cleaned with carborator cleaning dip. If one were to (every 10 years) drain the oil, fill the oil pan with 'dip' (toluene) and let it soak a week and flush thrice with fresh oil; wouldn't this resolve the problem of tar accumulation without tearing down the block? Would the residule sovlvent prevent lubrication and harm the engine?
If the previous owner of my '72 Islander 30 had done a proper lay up I wouldn't be rebuilding for another 10 years. I don't mean that as a flame, but as a warning to follow proper lay up procedure. And if Nick has been good to his engine, my opinion is merely to suggest seeking valour in procrastination.
In your experience, does the P-60 really require prophilactic overhaul of the block? What would you look for in an inspection before determining that the block HAS to be removed from the hull? |
Eddie Ross
Senior Member
Username: eddie
Post Number: 112
Registered: 04-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, March 04, 2006 - 07:22 am: |
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Back in the 1960s STP was touted as a cure-all remedy for engine ills. Use of any additive is not generally advised as modern oils have an additive package already in it and introducing another one to the mix can actually hinder the abilities of the additive package already in the oil. Many mechanics did notice that you could use STP effectively to keep a severly worn engine going as it enhansed viscosity helping worn piston rings seal better and filling the tolerance in worn bearings.
Along with frequent oil changes and fresh water flushes of the cooling jacket I'd leave it in as long as I could. |
Nick Fort
Member
Username: nfort
Post Number: 5
Registered: 02-2006
| | Posted on Saturday, March 04, 2006 - 09:10 pm: |
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Thanks Guy for all the input. If it is not raining to much next week, we will pull the engine and find out what we got. The Islander is new to me and it appears the Palmer was overheated. Water in oil, smokes and rusty thermostat. Luckly I have good friends that can help with the rebuild if we go down that path. I will keep you posted and probably have more questions. Thanks Nick |
Eddie Ross
Senior Member
Username: eddie
Post Number: 113
Registered: 04-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, March 05, 2006 - 12:41 am: |
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Like to hear what happens. Good luck any way you go. |
Dean
Visitor
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 15, 2006 - 02:35 am: |
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Hey, Nick you haven't posted since last weekend; so I thought I'd throw some food for thought your way (2 cents worth). Although your overheat may have been caused by seaweed and grass growing in the block, a previous owner may have run the engine with the seacock closed, or just ran low on oil. Water in the oil is a sure sign that the head gasket blew. But you didn't mention water leaking from the freeze plugs, so maybe it didn't get to hot. Running with a bad head gasket can be a good sign (better than not running).
As a cheap fix (trial repair), you might consider replacing the thermostat, the little head hose (forward) and clean its fittings, then replace the head gasket (the temp. sensor is also easy to remove {head aft} and clean -- may clog with calcium, salt and rust). And see how it runs, just to see if more work needs to be done now. I have often found that a dead head gasket produces much more smoke than a excesive ring/cylinder wear. I would estimate that replaceing only the head gasket is about 1/10th the effort of removing the block. If you change out just that gasket and re-evaluate, you may get a better impression of how much oil is burning due to rust on the cylinder walls, or with a compression gauge determine if serious cylinder wear exists. What's your oil pressure and temp now?
I've found the copper head gasket to be surprisingly expensive (the Gaskins folks in Norfolk say they no longer make these). I have found another supplier with stock, but the IHC steel gasket I got for about $25. Now there are many warnings on this site not to use the steel gasket with salt water cooling, but I haven't seen any information on the harm or how long it could be used(temporary solution?). How long could the steel gasket survive salt water use and what harm would be risked? Surely, its good enough for a 3 hour evaluation to determine if the block needs work or not.
Anyway, my point is just to highlight the risks and oppertuinities to pursue a potential short cut. If you don't mind casting one weekend and $25 to wind, you might be able to spare several weekends for later on (I found that removal, rebuild and reinstall may take many months of weekends).
Best of luck, whatever you decide to do. I look forward to reading about the rest of your story. |
Niall B. Finnegan
Visitor
| | Posted on Saturday, April 15, 2006 - 06:46 pm: |
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I just purchased a 1972 Marshall cat boat with a p-60 Palmer gas engine in it. The previous owner ran the Palmer every season and two years ago had it pulled and "fluffed up" NOT rebuilt. The entire electrical harness was replaced, distributor, coil, plugs wires, hoses etc. He told me the salt water pump needs rebuilding but it runs fine otherwise.
I have pulled the engine and am replacing it with a rebuilt Yanmar 2GM20 diesel. I want to sell the Palmer. Is anyone interested in this engine. I will consider all reasonable offers. |
Eddie Ross
Senior Member
Username: eddie
Post Number: 117
Registered: 04-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, April 15, 2006 - 08:01 pm: |
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Someone might take the whole engine but mostly what they are going to be needing are the key irreplaceable parts. The exaust manifold is most valuable. Other salvageable parts are thermostat housing, water pump and trim, distributor, water hose fitting at aft end of engine ( where the thermostat would be on a tractor. If you don't get a bite on the whole engine, you might want to hold on to those items. They are of use to people maintaining existing engines. The rest of the engine isn't really of much value. |
Nick Fort
Member
Username: nfort
Post Number: 7
Registered: 02-2006
| | Posted on Saturday, April 15, 2006 - 09:13 pm: |
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Nialli, I may be interested in some of the parts or the whole engine, I am finally planning on pulling my engine out this next week if it stops raining, then I will have a better idea of what I have and what I need. I am in Central California, where are you located? Thanks Nick |
Niall B. Finnegan
New member
Username: niall
Post Number: 1
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, April 16, 2006 - 12:52 pm: |
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Eddie,
Thanks for the honest assessment. It is an intact and running engine so I will ear mark those special items.
Nick,
I am located in Onancock on the Eastern Shore of the Chesapeake Bay on the Delmarva Peninsula. the last two southern counties belong to Vriginia although I sometimes wonder if they know that. Niall |
Nick Fort
Member
Username: nfort
Post Number: 8
Registered: 02-2006
| | Posted on Saturday, May 06, 2006 - 12:25 am: |
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I got the engine out of my Islander 30. It took my friend and me 6 hours a few beers and some sore backs to unbolt everything and mussel it onto the dock. The good news is the manifold looks to be in excellent shape. Nice thick casting on the manifold and we pressured tested the water passage to 50 # and no leaks were noted. The palmer had a leaky head gasket and lousy rebuilt job by the previous owner. They did not even put the oil rings in correctly so she was probably smoking from day one. I scored a NOS block and pistons from a tractor dealer in Sacramento for $420 and have a new head and parts on order. I like the Palmer-Farmall engine, she is a nice solid basic flathead and it will be nice knowing that the Islander 30 has a new engine. So far so good, I will keep you posted. Thanks for all the help so far. Nick |
mike fondo
Visitor
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 19, 2011 - 07:00 pm: |
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I have to pull the engine out of my 73 morgan out island 33, does anyone have tips on cutting the deck or pulling through the front of engine room and removing sink and part of wall any help appreciated engine is 50 hp perkins diesel |
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