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| Palmer PH 134 Head Questions |
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kip
New member
Username: kip
Post Number: 4
Registered: 06-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, October 02, 2005 - 09:14 pm: | 
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I have a PH 134 salt-water cooled engine in my 1924 Monterey. Used to run fine, but started to have trouble after running for awhile (an hour or so). Pulled plugs and saw salt on #2 cyl. Pulled head and have some questions I hope one of you will be able to help with.
1. head gasket. It's copper, made by Victor. Says it's a Victor 1358 and also has the part number 39218-C on it. Any suggestions on where I might get a replacement? (Can't find a Victor distributor.)
2. The primary cooling channels (large openings between #2 and 3 cyl. are fine, but the secondary channels (oblong rectangular channels on the exhaust head side) are full of what appears to be mineralized salt residue. I assume these cool the cylinders directly, but don't know that I can get this stuff out. So can I ignore this, since the engine's been running fine up to now? If not, what's the best method of clearing it out? I'm thinking of drilling out with a series of increasing bit sizes. Other suggestions?
3. Where would I find the "goo" to spray/apply to the copper gaskit before applying?
Thanks for any advice you may have.... |
larry_from_maryland
Senior Member
Username: larry_from_maryland
Post Number: 268
Registered: 07-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, October 06, 2005 - 07:07 pm: |
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The copper coat gasket stuff can be had at most parts places i know napa has it.The problem is they don't stock it,so you have to order it before you need it.The ph 134 doesn't show in my books(farm or truck or sparkplug).So which engine do you have?Could you give your piston diameter and the sparkplug used. |
richardday
Senior Member
Username: richardday
Post Number: 460
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, October 06, 2005 - 08:22 pm: |
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Good point Larry. The Palmer Hercules block should turn up as a Hercules engine. The salt build up suggests that this engine has had low water flow for a long time and the salt has percipitated out of the salt water as the temp has gone over 143 degrees. I guess the best thing on can do is go to a gasket maker and have a new compressable copper head gasket made. Personnaly I have no confidence that the copper "goo" will be at all satisfactory in this matter. Personally I use High Tack. The real problem is to find out why the jacket cooling water temp is so high that the salt will come right back if the water temp isn't lowered. Crummy job but the salt has to be dug out and flushed out of the water jacket. Thats my take on this situation. |
kip
Member
Username: kip
Post Number: 5
Registered: 06-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, October 09, 2005 - 01:38 am: |
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Thanks, Larry and Richard. Larry, the piston diameter is 3 1/4 inch. Richard's right--it's a Hercules block.
I'm sure you're right, Larry, that the water flow is low. I'm going to work at it with muriatic acid and see whether I can open up any of the blocked passages. But in the meanwhile, can you suggest a gasket maker? I've been hunting around (online) and I'm not having any luck.
Thanks |
richardday
Senior Member
Username: richardday
Post Number: 462
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, October 09, 2005 - 08:23 am: |
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Seems to me acid is going to be the end of your engine. It is so unpredictable and all of its effects in my opinion are bad. How do you really flush it all out and nuetralize it? A company that makes compresible copper head gaskets.
F.H. Gaskins Co., Inc.
25th & Church St.
Norfolk, VA.
Tel 757-622-4706
Fax 757-623-2317
Or
F.H. Gaskins Co., Inc.
4 Nashua Ct. Unit 3
Baltimore, MD.
Tel. 410-686-1800
Fax 410-686-5184 |
kip
Member
Username: kip
Post Number: 6
Registered: 06-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, October 09, 2005 - 03:28 pm: |
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Thanks, Richard, both for the advice on the acid and the referrals. So if I don't use the acid, how in the world can I get those passages to open up? They're completely closed and I've tried with an icepick, but can't make much headway. What am I missing?
Thanks again. |
richardday
Senior Member
Username: richardday
Post Number: 463
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, October 09, 2005 - 09:29 pm: |
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I use old screw drivers and a small hammer and just dig away. If you haul the engine then you can possibly hang it vertically and use water to help flush out the rust and salt. In any case it is a miserable job. |
kip
Member
Username: kip
Post Number: 7
Registered: 06-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, October 09, 2005 - 11:12 pm: |
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Richard,
You're right about that!
Spent the afternoon picking away at it with an assortment of icepicks, dental tools, screwdrivers and son on and am still far from done. The good news is that the only blocked passages seem to be the valve cooing passages running on the outside of the block (between the block and the exhaust manifold). This makes a lot of sense, since it's from this area that I could see the salt water was entering the pistons. I think what's happened is that the rest of the head is cooled well enough, but since the valves aren't receiving the cooling they need, the part of the block underneath them is expanding more than the rest of the engine, compressing the head gasket further and, eventually, allowing water in.
The challenge I faced today is that the water passage seems to go down into the block a ways, then stop. I'm assuming, based on the manual, that the passage becomes lateral (or horizontal) at some point, but I've not dug enough gunk out to tell yet. If it does, I'm not sure how I'll be able to dig out the passage beyond that 45 degree bend.
Now, with respect to the head, do you think I can take it to any good small car garage and have them clean and grind it true, or do I need to find a "specialist" in old water-cooled heads? |
richardday
Senior Member
Username: richardday
Post Number: 464
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Monday, October 10, 2005 - 08:09 am: |
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Ken you are getting past my pay grade. JB would be a good lead to advise you on that sort of work. I took my model T head to a shop that reground heads and they did a great job. I do think you will have to dig the salt out of the head passages before they can regrind it. I wonder if their hot tank would do a good job on the salt you cannot get at in the head. I would be very worried if they were to use acid as to what it would do to the head. Best advice I can think of. You should try to figure out how the cooling water got above 143F for a long time to cause the salt build up. If you don't resolve that problem the salt will come right back. Is there a thermostat or blockage in the cooling water circuit? Good luck. |
kip
Member
Username: kip
Post Number: 8
Registered: 06-2003
| | Posted on Monday, October 10, 2005 - 12:06 pm: |
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Thanks, Richard. I appreciate your advice. I think I've figured out the cooling water question. I think it's a combination of two things.
The first is flow pattern below the valves I mentioned in my prior post. Water flows through a small channel below the valves. This is not connected in the block, but flows through the head. I think that when it began to experience salt buildup the progression was quick and dramatic--and once it had progressed to the current state, the different temperatures of the two sides of the head distorted the gasket enough when hot to allow water into the pistons.
Second is a combination of turning the engine off right after getting in to the slip and not turning off the salt water intake valve soon enough. Here's why I think those would create this problem. When I'm out motoring around, I run at about 1800 RPM and 140 degrees. When I come in to the marina and throttle down to 750-1000 rpm, I've noticed that the temperature spikes upward, because, of course, the speed of the accessory shaft slows down faster than the engine cools down. Now, if I turn the engine off before it's come to equilibrium at 140, salt can start to mineralize.
Making this worse, because I've been slow to close the intake access, the water is able to start draining out of the engine and, with the head at the top of the engine, it drains of of the head first. This isn't as much of a problem for the rest of the engine as it is for this valve channel, which must cool itself via convection. No water above it in the head means no convection, and no equilibrium means the temps are in the 170, not 140 range. I think that's it.
So, I'll take your advice on grinding out the salt in the head (not much at all and not bad) and in asking them to go light on the acids. Thanks again, Richard, for the good advice. |
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