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| Questions re FERRO 1cyl 2cyc 3?hp |
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Steve Geishecker
| | Posted on Thursday, July 11, 2002 - 10:10 am: | 
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From my search and review of messages on those sites, seemed you as a group were the best prospects/experts to help with my "FERRO related requests"....hopefully, one of you guys recognize / appreciate my problem, can tell me what it is and the best thing to do to resolve it and why. The ENGINE_020710.xls file I have attached here that includes some actual data and a PIC of our FERRO engine. Here's the my/our story:
We have a FERRO 1cyl/2cyc/3?hp engine...that runs (but). My grandfather bought? it ~1910 to put in an ~18ft wooden motorboat had had built locally. The boat/engine has always been in our family. The only water it has been in is Lake Pearl in Wrentham, MA where my grandfather had a summer
place...he's gone since ~1975 but my uncle still has a place there. Believe the engine probably
originally had a Model#/Serial# label but it's long gone. Also, believe it also originally had an "oiler" (injecting oil mist into the intake stream from the carburetor) but it's been gone as long as I remember.....always just ran with a gas/oil premix).
I was born in 1950 and as a kid, the boat had not been in the water since ww2....understand before
that it had been in the water and run most summer seasons. After ww2, the engine spent time
(partially disassembled) in our basement...with my dad/me/my siblings not really appreciating how
important it was the pieces of this special gift needed to stay intact/together. My uncle retired from Marines in 1964, came home, and got a project going to 1) restore the boat and 2) get the engine
back together and running. At 14, I was his "right hand kid" and took a lot of interest. To say the least, getting the engine/etc back together correctly was a challenge for the two of us (no manuals, specs, parts lists, etc). We did get it running but pulled our hair out re the right internal parts/adjustments of same for the carburetor....but it's never run "quite right/the way it used to" (we all remember my grandfather during this process advising us t! o "take it out and sink it."
The main issue at this point seems to be the "lack of compression". We tried ring expanders and
"new rings" but it all seemed to make things worse...hard to start/run turned to never started/ran. It just seems to have days, months, or years when it would start/run and others when it wouldn't.
When times were tough, lifting the prop out of the water or decoupling the prop shaft always made
things easier...but this isn't real. Bottom line, it didn't have it's old "gusto". From all the
reading/research, these symptoms and not being able to "bounce start" the thing seemed to align
to "lack of compression".
Chasing that down, we took but didn't document the actual peak compression readings (PSI)...but
recall they were "low" (<60psi?) but we don't know "what is should be". We checked/eliminated
significant leaks at: plug, head gasket, etc. Back in 1992, I took some detailed measurements of
ID on the cylinder bore and OD of the piston vs location. That data seems to indicate some
wearout on top half of the cylinder and some small amount of "egg shape" due I'm sure due to
side-to-side loading of connecting rod but we don't have any way to interpret this data into "what's the likely issue" causing the symptoms. We "suspect" the issue in some way is caused by "too much piston vs cylinder clearance" BUT we don't know how to tell exactly what our big problem is.
Our goal is to get this machine "starting/running the way it used to" BUT we're not comfortable with
the idea of "pressing a sleeve" and reboring back to match the piston due to risk of cra! cking the
casting. We'd like to think this could be properly resolved by maybe a slight rebore to round of the cylinder and some new rings to match the existing cyliner/slightly new bore...but we don't know...and are looking for some inputs from somebody with more specific experience/knowledge
than we have.
I've attached one file (ENGINE_020710.xls/020710) with my cylinder ID and piston OD
measurement data & PIC of the engine.
I'd greatly appreciate any / all comments / suggestions / recommendations / references you can offer / suggest.
I hope to make it to the Mystic show 17-18Aug/perhaps I'll get to see some/all of you there....but hope to hear back well before that as summer is 30% over already.
Best Regards/Thanks in Advance,
Steve Geishecker
East Walpole, MA
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andrew
| | Posted on Thursday, July 11, 2002 - 10:18 am: |
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Let's try attaching his excel file again....
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andrew
| | Posted on Thursday, July 11, 2002 - 10:22 am: |
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A picture of his engine...
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andrew
| | Posted on Thursday, July 11, 2002 - 10:28 am: |
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Dick Day's response:
Quote:This may sound wacky but I have had engines brought to me to fix that had the same problems and the solution was evident by looking in the exhaust port. The piston had been installed with the baffle next to the exhaust port not the intake port where it belongs. Instant fix on that problem. I had a lot of trouble with a Ferro Special carburetor that the engine instantly became a very well running once I installed the proper intake cover on the carburetor throat. It looked like it would almost totally choke off inlet air but once it was in position no more problems with the carburetor. It was on Bill Coolidge's, Toppan Launch that he used to bring to the Mystic show and the CMM show.
I wonder what fuel mix Steve is using. Myself I stick to 40:1 SAE 30 non detergent oil. Pint to five gallons. The original oiling system on the Ferro was a nightmare and the oil/gas mix is the only way to go.
Some thought might be given to putting grease cups on the shaft to allow injection of water pump grease into the bearing to help seal the bearings. After 1910 most people began to mix oil in the fuel and gave up on the drip oilers festooned on their engines. This engine probably got that treatment early on.
Am I missing something? The wear measurement don't seem that bad to me. When I consider the wear I have seen on a lot of two-strokes that seem to run very well. The new rings problem could be the engine is now a lot stiffer and needs to be run in. I would use the "Finger Tip" test. I find you should be able to move the Flywheel with your finger tips easily if the engine is going to be easy to start. When I rebuild a two stroke I then belt it up to a motor and run it for some hours until the bearing, rings etc. permit easy turning of the flywheel. Once that point is reached then I start it and let it run on its own for several more hours until it is really quite limber. If the engine is too stiff then it may fire a few stokes but then stall as soon as the extra energy you impart to the flywheel dies away. Sometimes if you can get it going fast enough it will run but the minute you slow it down it dies.
Best I can offer. Regards to all, Dick Day
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andrew
| | Posted on Thursday, July 11, 2002 - 12:05 pm: |
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A response from J.B.:
Quote:Compresion is important, the engine must also be free spinning. If it's tight it will hit once and not make it over the next compression stroke to keep running, the drag of the prop increases this.
Tight bearings and stiif rings aggravate this. I usually have to machine .030" from the inside diameter of new rings to reduce wall pressure. Make sure your piston is installed correctly,
deflector to the intake side. Have the cylinder honed with a proffesional Sunnen type hone. Check the fit of the rings to the piston. Rings and pistons wear together, rounding off the bottom where it meets the piston. A new ring will be square and will not seal to the piston, compression will pass in back of the ring and around the bottom. This is critical, If worn the piston can be machined and wider rings can be installed or you can buy ring spacers, a thin ring that looks like and oil ring but hugs the piston instead of expanding. I have sleeved 17 of these cylinders so far, all have been sucessful. When I sleeve them I only use about .001" interferance and install them with locktight sleeve retainer, this reduces the stress on them.
Hope this helps.
J.B. Castagnos
Belle Rose, LA
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andrew
| | Posted on Thursday, July 11, 2002 - 12:32 pm: |
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I seem to be channelling this thread... but there is some good info, so I will keep posting it. Chuck Balyeat wrote:
Quote:My Ferro had the piston , and the compensating valve on the carb inlet you speak of .............both were backwards . The backwards piston is good for a lot of backfiring . Fortunately I found it all during hte post mortem and hadnt tried to run it yet . As it also had the rod insert in upside down leaving no way to oil !
60 PSI sounds pretty floppy to me .
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ernie
| | Posted on Thursday, July 11, 2002 - 07:31 pm: |
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I am in Taunton. e-mail me for a phone number. I have had 3 engines like yours. All were made to run fine.
Have a good day
Ernie
WWW.erniesengines.com |
Steve Geishecker
| | Posted on Saturday, July 13, 2002 - 09:19 am: |
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Many THANKS to Andrew for helping post my initial note as well as a couple email responses...and THANKS to all those that have responded so far...above as well as by separate emails not posted here.
Dick Day, JB Castagnos, Chuck Balyeat, Ernie (I'll give you a call this weekend), and Alan Johnson.
While my initial note was not very short, commments since ID relevant info I neglected to include so let me share a bit back here FYI:
1) we did learn early on about the critical need to have piston baffle on intake port side..... that's not an issue for us at this point.
2) Though I do NOT see it related to my low compression concern, Chuck made some interesting comments about "proper intake cover on the carburetor throat" and "the compensating valve on the carburetor inlet" possibly being in backwards. We think our carburetor is close to correct now with check valve (leather side of a diaphragm disc pressed against intake seat by a coil spring/guide assy) on air intake but I'd appreciate any specifics anyone can offer re the "original design" of this FERRO Carb.
3) One comment we relate to/agree with entirely was made by several responders: to start easily, critical for the engine to be loose/free spinning.
4) The engine already has grease cups for both front and rear main bearings. The main bearings seem to be in good shape/nice an loose/free wheeling with no rod connected. We have found maintaining proper front to back alignment of crank to rod/piston is critical to achieving a "loose/free" spinning engine condition. When crank, rod, & block are properly setup/aligned, seems only real remaining source of "drag" ("not loose/not free") would tend to be the piston/rings as they contact the bore.
5) Feedback about my actual bore/piston data was "mixed"...some felt there was too much wear/others didn't seem to think it was much of an issue. Without any "design specs" or similar data on an engine that starts/runs great, I have no easy way to judge acceptability of our data. As an engineer, I'd tend to resort to compression data and "how free the engine is". (ie, if compression is OK and engine is free, the bore/piston conditions must be OK...if not, then maybe something about the bore/piston condition likely needs improvement). From our hands-on experience, we recognize what "loose/free" is.
What I don't know is what (PSI)is "reasonable/normal" for compression readings (measured a certain way) on an engine just like this that starts under load and runs great.
(my gut feel is that Chuck is corrent: "60 PSI sounds pretty floppy to me".)
CAN ANYBODY TELL ME WHAT RANGE OF PSI I NEED TO ACHIEVE (MEASURED HOW?) BASED EITHER ON SOME "OLD SPECS" OR AS ACTUALLY MEASURED (SAME WAY) ON AN ENGINE LIKE THIS BUT IN "GREAT RUNNING CONDITION"?
Assuming my compression is "too low", next puzzle will be to figure out exactly what minimum modifications I might have to make to bore, piston, rings etc to achieve "required minimum PSI" AND a "loose/free" condition. Any takers???
Thanks Again....Steve |
J.B. Castagnos
| | Posted on Saturday, July 13, 2002 - 01:37 pm: |
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Actually 60 psi sounds pretty good to me if you're hand cranking it. The main thing I look for is "bounce", when you give it a pull against compression it should bounce back. If low on compression it will usually leak past the rings and the flywheel will be dead when bounced against compression. J.B. |
Richard Day
| | Posted on Saturday, July 13, 2002 - 04:20 pm: |
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What about the finger tip test? Don't turn this problem into a Federal case. |
ernie
| | Posted on Saturday, July 13, 2002 - 05:56 pm: |
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Bounce the flywheel against compression. If bounces back quickly that is good. Unless you have upper arms the size of tree limbs you should not be able to pull it through TDC with one hand in one motion. Also it seems you said it had been apart. Maybe just get it running and get the parts to like eachother again. Bring it over to Taunton and we will make it run, if at all possible.
Hope this helps
Ernie |
Chuck Balyeat
Visitor
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 21, 2004 - 11:28 pm: |
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I learned not to run these things without a complete post mortem<Darrow and go through . I have a Ferro that upon dissasembly , I discovered to have
1 The piston in about face
2 compensating valve in backwards with spring on wrong side
3 slotted con rod bearing upside down
No wonder it was bouncing around from barn to barn . If it would have run it would have slung a bearing
There are very few moving parts , but somebody managed to get it all wrong . |
ernie
Senior Member
Username: ernie
Post Number: 389
Registered: 01-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, July 22, 2004 - 08:16 am: |
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By the way the above Ferro only needed a headgasket. The owner brought it over and it truly had no compression. We removed the head and the copper headgasket looked good. On one side that is. I made a new gasket and it started the 1st turn. |
ernie
Senior Member
Username: ernie
Post Number: 390
Registered: 01-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, July 22, 2004 - 08:17 am: |
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By the way glad to see you here Chuck! |
mcano
Visitor
| | Posted on Monday, February 21, 2005 - 01:57 pm: |
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I have a 1971 Mercury 4 cyl 80 Hp I just bougth the boat and the engine star with the starting fluid and it run for a few seconds and then it turn off, if I use the starting fluid again it star again but it goes off again, I took out the carburators and cleaned them with special spray, and they look fine now, but still have the same problem, any suggest? |
solarrog
Senior Member
Username: solarrog
Post Number: 145
Registered: 03-2002
| | Posted on Monday, February 21, 2005 - 02:05 pm: |
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Number one throw the starting fluid away. you are damaging the engine every time you do this.
Number two, put a kit in the fuel pump. Check the flow from your tank.
Lastly, I have a complete 80HP Mecury power head if you need it. Email me direct, Off list |
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Ferro Excel File
